Haas Vm3

[Kevangel]

There is another line of thought on 1 expensive machine Vs. 3 cheaper VMCs and that is; if the economy tightens and you are having trouble you might be able to drop "1" cheap machine and keep goin. That big expensive machine will sell cheap and you will be out of business. I watched this in the last great downturn..the Haas- Milltronics-Hurcos types sold at a decent price as guys startin out are buying them at auction, But the 300K machines that should have brought 100K at auction went as low as 25K....people don't know what to do with them or are scared of big repair bills as parts $$ are way higher.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...Harley took a lot of bashing in the 70's...

 

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ALL of it was earned.

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I'm guessing you missed the point, Harley turned their company around, despite the nay sayers!

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They turned it around because they embraced TQM methods developed by AMERICANS Deming and Juran and which the US Mfg. Industry spurned (:cough: Ford, :cough: GM, :cough: Chrysler: )for years. You can turn just about anything around with enough money ($81 million in Harley's Case).

 

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...That big expensive machine will sell cheap and you will be out of business...

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Depends ENTIRELY on the machine. For example, I have yet to see a Matsuura MAM72 5-Axis go on auction. Not to say there have not been any, but I get the question ALL THE TIME "Where can I get an used one of these???". The answer is easy, there are none because the guys with them are making a $#!+load of money with them and are not even remotely interested in getting rid of them. Sure you'll find 10, 15, 20 year old High End Japanese machines for sale at auctions or used machinery dealers but RARE is the 5 y/o or less because they DO make lots of money for their owners, and by and large would be better served selling their older and paid for VMC's.

 

JM2C

[mgsanchez]

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All of these Pro classes are a total fraud; like saying Warren Johnson was really running an Oldsmobile all those years. Didn't see too many 550 cubic inch Oldsmobiles with 2200CFM worth of carbs, 9-inch rear ends, and Lenco trannies down at my dealership

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Well go down to your local track and file a formal complaint!

[mgsanchez]

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They turned it around because they embraced TQM methods developed by AMERICANS Deming and Juran and which the US Mfg. Industry spurned (:cough: Ford, :cough: GM, :cough: Chrysler: )for years. You can turn just about anything around with enough money ($81 million in Harley's Case).

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That's right, despite the nay sayers.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Yea, I know Harley has turned it around, But I ain't got none them new fangled ones. I have a 73 Shovel, a 73 Sporty, and two 45's

They all leak, ain't very fast, don't want to go round no corners but they DO put a smile on my face.

[MACHINEMASTERG]

i think the way HAAS continues to get better they will also begin to make motorcycles too ,maybe the fastest one on earth

[Kevangel]

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any, but I get the question ALL THE TIME "Where can I get an used one of these???".

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I was referring to if another big downturn comes like after 9/11, where there are lots of forclosure types of auctions. I noticed that people buying more expensive machines and owed money did not make it around here, but the shops that bought cheaper machines managed to survive. Shops around here that are really expanding are doing military work and what will happen if military budgets get cut by next Prez.? I do understand that bigger expensive machines have higher charge out rates, but also if they are slow it can kill ya.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

I was talkin to one my customers that heard I'm gettin a 500mm horiz. He told me to let him know when it gets here cause he has a friend what does a lot of work that goes overseas for the construction trade. He's looking for horiz capacity. I don't see that overseas market drying up.

But that isn't why I bought it. It may well help pay for it though.

[mgsanchez]

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Yea, I know Harley has turned it around, But I ain't got none them new fangled ones. I have a 73 Shovel, a 73 Sporty, and two 45's

They all leak, ain't very fast, don't want to go round no corners but they DO put a smile on my face.

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They put a smile on my face too! Even riding home in the rain today, I was smiling all the way.

 

I still have my 81' FLH Shovel, bought used in 83'. It has 187,000.0+ on the clock now. I used to have a 54' 50th anniversary Servi-car with a 45in flaty, 3speed with reverse that was 98% original. I wished I still had it. The OL was PO when I sold it. She got over it... after I bought her another bike. I also had a 69' Ironhead sporty that I rode in high school. I don't miss that one!

 

I've had quite a few before and after, the latest is an 07' Ultra. The bad thing about the new bikes is that they don't break-down as often. I kinda miss being stuck on the side of the road. LOL. The good thing is that we can cover more miles now.

 

Only a biker knows why a dog sticks his head out the window.

[mgsanchez]

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i think the way HAAS continues to get better they will also begin to make motorcycles too ,maybe the fastest one on earth

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That's GREAT! LOL. I was starting to wonder if any one had a sense of humor here!!

[Thee Dragracer1951]

You know, seriously, I've heard all this stuff about how Haas is gettin better an all. But I hear HORROR stories about 2002 and later machines. I think their quality IS going down. My 2000 Mini just keeps running. I think it's all due to getting too big too fast. They are putting so many machines out the door that they don't have enough time to really put a set of eyes on them.

[mgsanchez]

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You know, seriously, I've heard all this stuff about how Haas is gettin better an all. But I hear HORROR stories about 2002 and later machines. I think their quality IS going down.

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Fast growth does come with penalties and quality is one of them.

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Haas has also broadened their product line [to their detriment in my opinion] to include HMCs, more lathes, etc, which helps volume quite a bit.

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I agree with Chris that one.

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My 2000 Mini just keeps running.

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I have a 2001 Mini that I play with in the garage at home and it just keeps running, and running, and running. You would think is was the dang energizer bunny.

[Bruce Caulley]

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And about the IPM thing... personally I like the 1,000 IPM+ range myself in Alum. It scares the $#!+ out of the people around it so it tends to keep people away from it [big Grin]

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I tried more than 400, but the swarf conveyor wouldn't keep up. That and the POS pallet hook design on that model variaxis kept getting clogged and throwing pallets.

 

Nothing beats watching someone new with their forehead resting on the window watching the "fog" hoping for a glimpse of something happening and seeing how high they jump when the tool starts throwing swarf at the window They $hi7 nearly everytime.

 

Bruce

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...Nothing beats watching someone new with their forehead resting on the window watching the "fog"...

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Mist collectors can help with that!

[Bruce Caulley]

True, but another one of the things that didn't always work.

 

In all fairness, Mazak do occasionally drop the ball on a machine. The pair of Variaxis 630's that were at that company were occasionally problematic for silly reasons.

 

Bruce

[strabe]

So Seth, Does all of this answer your question??

[800mxz]

I would suggest that anyone that has a chance to take a tour of Haas in Oxnard. Even if you sell their comeptitor's amchines, they will walk you around and show you what they do and why they do it.

 

While their, you can see their Mori-Seki's, HItachi-Sekis, that they are replacing and running "lights out" 100% robot loaded. They have 400 spindles in their place, less than 20 of them are builders other than Haas.

 

Yes, there is a place for everyone in the market. Ferrari doesnt make a car for everyone either.

 

As far as a pallet changing 5 axis machine, it is called the ES-5

 

As far as a high horsepower non-belt spindle, all of the 12k machines are direct drive 30HP and I would put it up against anything else with the same specs. DO it here everyday.

 

BTW - I am a apps guy for a very large HFO, and we sell more than Haas also. Many of the machines here that are mentioned.

[800mxz]

As far as MAM series machines, their are probably less than 20 in the country also. Custom built 1 offs basically.

[ATG]

Wow, Thanks I have allot of information to comb through.

[peon]

We have the 12k rpm spindles on both our VM2 and VM3. Within the first year, BOTH of the motors were replaced and the VM3 is making alot of racket again! I have been happy using the Haas machines, but the servicemen are here WAY too often! Too much downtime fixing these Pintos!!

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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As far as MAM series machines, their are probably less than 20 in the country ...

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:cough: :cough:

 

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Custom built 1 offs basically.

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Better to be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

[mgsanchez]

If you get a chance you may also want to take a tour of Mazak's factory in Florence, Kentucky. I was there this past December for their "Touch the Future" event. I have been there on four other occasions, one personal tour as well as three other "Touch the Future" events. They have a very impressive facility. I like their "Done in One" approach. Mazak is starting to replace their older machines on the manufacturing line with new Mazak equipment.

 

Contact your Mazak dealer and I am sure he can schedule you a personal tour also.

[SydwazShawn]

Oh yes the HAAS argument!!! This was a good thread to say the least. I will give my opinion as well since everyone else has chimed in. First off if you are a job shop just staring then the HAAS will make you LOTS of money. Now if you’re a production shop or going to be a production shop then you need to venture away from those machines.

 

At our shop we started with the infamous lunar lander!! LoL!! After 14 years we now have 11 HAAS machines no bigger than VF3’s, and there all VMC. We do mainly Semi Conductor work, that had tolerances under +/-.0005 all the time. With that being said we learned how to use these machines to the best of there abilities. We always have had are machines in a climate controlled environment to keep the machine fluctuation down as much as possible. You learn how to work around there faults.

 

There are a few thing we stuck too early on, and that was to never by a LATHE or HMC from HAAS. When you need to cut tenths all day on a lathe we new Haas wasn’t going to cut it. We also felt that if your going to buy a HMC then it better be something that was very accurate and fast, because that’s what they are made for.

 

We have had are share of problems with HAAS VMC but it has not been anything to complain about because of the money we have made from them, EXCEPT we made the mistake of buying 2 of the SS models with the 12k spindle. First of we have had problems with the spindles, and the X,Y accuracy is way off. Easily .0008 of TIR from location to location.(not good!!) We have had the best luck with our 10k spindles. It’s kind of funny that when we need something that has a tight true position, we will put it on the lunar lander. That machine was built better than they are now. Its table was even ground instead of milled..

 

I think the Haas is best placed in a young shop that has a lot of different jobs with a tight budget. It makes it easy to by 3 mills for the price of one good one. When you’re trying to bust out different jobs all at the same time its beneficial to have three machines with three operators getting the products out on time. That way of thinking secured those jobs witch intern made us tons of money.

 

Without are HAAS machines we would have never come so far, and for that I give HAAS my respect. If it wasn’t for those machines we wouldn’t have been able to buy our Hatachi, Mori, and Nak machines. But like others have stated there time has past for us and we will only buy Jap machines from this point forward.

 

So hale to HAAS and now I hope I can welcome my new baby soon, Matsuura’s 63V.. LoL!!!

[mgsanchez]

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witch intern

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Cool! Let's go on a witch hunt!

 

I apologize for "myself", I know what you meant.

 

me: Get back in the corner.

myself: Come on, I just want of have some fun!

me: No, now is not the time.

myself: Come on, just let me stir the pot one more time.

me: NO! GET BACK IN THE CORNER... NOW!

myself: Fine! YOU'RE BORING!

 

Sorry guys, I think I have control of "myself" now!