Moving into Mill/Turn...

[Kelly Burns]

Currently we have an Okuma Mac-Turn 250-W. It has a custom built on board programming center built by Okuma for running a shaft based family of parts with hobbing included. Next week we have another one coming in. I have been given the objective of incorportating some of the other parts we run into this machine to eliminate multiple setups, rotarys, yada yada.

 

3/4 Axis milling background, VMC Fanuc, HMC Okuma, some lathe background for MCam Programming using mill level 3 with solids.

 

Questions:

1. What additional MCam packages will I need in order to begin programming? (Lathe, etc.)

 

2. I have contacted my reseller for post-pricing; How confident are any of you with a high end post "out of the box" without using vericut? (I do not have it at this point and is not in the budget at the time being)We are a cash based company and this machine is taking a huge bite out it this quarter. I can already here you Ron arguing the validity of purchasing add on software for verification -vs- crashing a spindle and I am with you, but at this point it is "no".

 

3. Has any of the multi-axis training available thru the resellers been of much value to any of you in incorporating this step of programming from

3/4 axis based programming style.

 

Thanks in advance.

[crazy^millman]

Guys I am sorry I am the voice on reason when it comes to Mill/Turn, but I will be the voice since no one at CNC want the responsibility.

 

In-House is your only choice when it comes to a post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

In case I was not clear I will repeat myself In-House is the only choice when it comes to a post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Ok now that we got that very important piece out of the way lets talk brass tax. I understand you are a cash based company and by being a cashed based business you try to keep everything in a manageable expense. So what I take for your statement is you guys pretty much paid cahs for your machine. Good and bad and really not going to get inot that mistake I think the company made. I will however get into what the road looks like for you. Programming a Mill trun machine even a 4 axis lathe(dual turret) can be done with Mastercam and you can feel pretty good about it, however you can not trust it 100% not to crash. I tell my 3 guys that run our 3 different mill/turn machine you are my Vericut. Do not trust my code do not trust my code do not trust my code. Biggest thing is getting from the toolchange position to a cut, clearance acting the way I think it should, and going from 5 axis mode to axis substitution mode. The biggest thing on our 2 turret machine is sync codes and 95% of the time right out of Mastercam I nail that using my Cantext method. It does take longer to program and it does take longer to fix any problems, but the code is sometimes to the point where they can load it hit the green button and not have a problem. The cantext method will work very well with sync milling. Milling is very easy to sync since most times you are not in a cut for 20 to 30 minutes at a time. The lathe side where you are take 20 cuts or 10 cuts each turret it where sync becomes a pain. I do not know the machines and if they do not have lower turrets you really will be very happy with Mastercam to a point.

 

Now the money side of the coin. Vericut is not a cheap software, but it is the only software I am aware of that works directly with Mastercam that will simulate Mill/Turn machines. How much if your time, the machine proving out programs time, and a possible crash downtime worth needs to be thought of. Not just the cost right now of it. Sorry, but the penny wise $100 dumb rule applies hear. If you take 2 to 5 hours longer programming a part because you are not sure of the code that cost money. If it take 2 to 5 hours longer to get a job running because you do not trust the code that cost money. Lets do a little math using just these 2 ideas for now.

 

So basic math using our Shop rate of $100/hr. We will use 3 hours and we will use 3 job a week. So the programmer has 9 extra hours programming and 9 extra hours a week proving out programs.(To All complaining as you read this. These are an average some shops might be better some shops might be worse. Do some real time studies with a video camera and a stop watch and then complain about my time)Ok so in one week that is 18 hours or $1800 not really people always forget that this is lost time that could be put to another job. So your real lost costs are $3600 a week. So in 10 weeks you lost possibly $36,000, in one year you possibly lost $187,200 on just one machine. Now if you need this proving out on 3 machines your weekly goes to $7200 is possibly lost cost and in one year is $374,400 which is all reality pays for another machine. Now being a cash based company I would think not losing that much money in a year would be huge, but I would never pay cash for a machine, I would lease it or make payments to the bank since they can be written right off the top, thus making a cash business more profitable in the long run than in the short run.

 

Sorry not trying to rub slat in the wounds, but one machine struggle if you can not afford the software, or so you think you can not afford the software. More than one and you really need to rethink what a verification software adds to the company. I hope someone who's company uses the software will chime in.

 

I will repeat myself In-House post only!!!!

 

Mastercam will do it, but be willing to lost time.

 

Have changing stations near the machines for the operators.

 

Crashes yes I saved this piece to the last because well $50,000 for a crash and you more than paid for the software. 2 weeks of downtime would cost most shops over $40,000 again big part of paying for the software. Peace of mind the code you send to the machine is good, how much is that worth?????

[Hardmill]

quote:

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In-House is your only choice when it comes to a post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

In case I was not clear I will repeat myself In-House is the only choice when it comes to a post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

---

Listen to Ron he knows what hes talking about.!!!!!!!!

 

 

In case I was not clear I will repeat myself

listen to Ron !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Id have to powers that be reconsider, seriously.

 

 

PEACE

[Hardmill]

quote:

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Guys I am sorry I am the voice on reason when it comes to Mill/Turn, but I will be the voice since no one at CNC want the responsibility.

---

Ron the last thing you need to do is appologize.

It been well documented that Mill/turn has been a

big issue for a long time.

If one wants to stay with MC and do Mill/turn its

best they go into with eyes wide open.

I myself as well as others have said before that

esprit does a nice job of Mill/turn. Do I like

having to say that ?? HELL NO!! But facts is facts.

 

Consider everything Kelly, theres nothing wrong

with having both, they are a great compliment to

each other.

 

IMO

 

 

PEACE

[Stewron]

quote:

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In-House is your only choice when it comes to a post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

---

... in North America. Elsewhere, you also have the choice of Cimco and Camaix for Mill/Turn posts.

 

Cheers,

[Greg Williams]

Kelly,

 

If you have Okuma's you may also want to look at Okuma's 3D Virtual Monitor as well as vericut for program simulation.

 

As for a post. Inhouse have a very nice one.

 

quote:

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It has a custom built on board programming center built by Okuma for running a shaft based

---

Is this a User task or variable based program?

[Kelly Burns]

Thank you gentlemen; getting ready to take the plunge.

 

Ron, you know your advice is always appreciated by me. I believe that the post Im looking at is native from In House. Trust me the butt pucker factor would be a lot less if we could get a seat of Vericut.

 

These machines are also capable of hobbing, Im not sure of how they are setup Greg, just starting to look at them now. I know the software is custom built, how much is customized I dont know yet.

 

I have never ventured into Esprit, but will be taking a look at along with the mill/turn package from MasterCam.

 

Thank you again