Makino questions

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I heard the same thing but I don't like to spread rumors either.

 

I'll put a Toyoda up against a Makino... I beat them in a Cycle Time and Surface Finish with an FH450S in 17-4 cutting demo last week.

 

They should NOT be charging for Tool Breakage AND Tool Length Measurement. They use the same detection method. That's a ripoff. Probing price looks right though. 137 Tools... that's a "thank you sir may I have another" ... why bother with so few tools...200+ should be minimum anymore. Charging for Helical??? that's another "thank you sir may I have another".

 

JM2C

[Colin Gilchrist]

Jim,

 

Good hard material milling machine routinely have 20-40k spindles.

 

If it were my dime, I would be looking at a machine that can handle a good range of work, not just hard metals.

 

James, what is your take on the machine spec's? 8k RPM? What were you cutting that 17-4 at?

 

If you really want to get into hard metals, the tooling technology is just as important as the machine you are getting (maybe more).

[Jayson Kramer]

James the Yoda being installed 1500 tools and 3 spindals is this correct?

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I was finishing at 15k at 250 IPM (programmed) with the Feed Rate Override At 200% with a 4 Flute Ball Endmill doing full rotary 4th cuts. It was pretty cool looking to watch it cut... The finish was VERY nice.

[Guest]

no disrespect to the forum guru's i know you guys know what your talking about but with limited budget i think i can still compete on short run parts (50-200 parts) using a good toquee machine. ya my cycle time might be a few minutes more but lets keep in reality of return on investment needed to move forward.

no mud slingen here, but its not our money being invested. if that was the case i would get a couple million dollar machine and enjoy.

 

doug

 

colin point taken very well on a machine that can handle multiple materials but have you ever chipped out and cleaned one of these baby's to change material running? it will take the profit outa one to two jobs.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Jay, yeah. 500 per magazine. I think 40some pallets if memory serves... It will stage 3 tools in advance too...

[Bruce Caulley]

Doug,

Shouldn't be any chipping out, that is what the conveyors are for. You are right though, ROI varies depending on the work you do.

 

The company I was at had four A55's and two of them ran cast iron production parts 24/7 for years and didn't really miss a beat. Any other machine would have been knackered.

 

Bruce

[Rick Henrickson The Boeing Co.]

James you are right about the tool breakage and length offset, the reason is that makino has a tool breakage checker behind the tool change door and the tool in the ready pot is checked for beakage before and after tool change you could use the tool length setter inside the machine but you loose machine time.

[Guest]

"Doug,

Shouldn't be any chipping out, that is what the conveyors are for"

 

didnt nail my explenation too well. was really thinking more, coolant concentrations and or metal contaminants, standard cutters in magizine, etc from one material to another.

you will also have areas of machine-tombstones pallets etc. that collect chips.

ive just always picked my poison on each machine, ie aluminum-plastics or hardmetals.

am spoiled and been able to dedicate machines. it is something to think about tho if you need to run your full gamma in one work horse.

 

doug

[Kevangel]

quote:

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I'll put a Toyoda up against a Makino

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Saw a Toyoda horizontal with a pallet changer 2,000lb capacity and 35 X 40 travel, 50 taper, 48 tools, etc. They demo it moving and running, changing tools and switching out pallet (rotated table type). weighed about 40,000 lbs. and sold for $ 8,000.00

[cobra95kev]

8000.00!!

I'll take 3!

 

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...the reason is that makino has a tool breakage checker behind the tool change door and the tool in the ready pot is checked for beakage before and after tool change you could use the tool length setter inside the machine but you loose machine time.

---

If the lights are off, and nobody is there watching it, does an exra 5 seconds matter???

[Guest]

dont know i wasnt there, lol.

food for thought this feature is sounding pretty good as when chips get in or on the tool breakage detector early on in lights out i can sure tell 5+ hrs of down time shows on the schedule.

 

ds

[Rick Henrickson The Boeing Co.]

James it does the exact same thing it joes does it outside the work zone and it is for lights out operation, the only way to be better would be tool load monitor which is very effective if you set up your tables correctly.

 

remember anyhting you can do outside the work zone reduces non value added time.

[Jerosu]

Just curious if a tool breaks, the machine changes tools, hauls a$$ into the next cut. How long before the behind the door checker recognizes there is a problem?

[Rick Henrickson The Boeing Co.]

just about as fast as it changes the tool

[Dave Ball]

quote:

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They should NOT be charging for Tool Breakage AND Tool Length Measurement. They use the same detection method.

---

James, the Makino has two methods of checking for broken tools, one in the machining envelope and one outside the machining envelope. BTSOMA, broken tool sensor outside machining area, is what they call the one on the ATC. It allows checking for broken tools at the standby station during machining. It is not capeable of setting tool lengths. The inside the machine method can check for broken tools plus measure the tool length and diameter but obviously not while machining. Both are offered as options and you can buy both although I don't know why anyone would.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Just like the one I had on a Mori SH-8000. ONLY breakage detection on the magazine side.

 

I disagree with the whole principle of it because after you run a tool, you should check it. You should not be starting another tol before it has been checked out. You don't know if there's a tool sticking out of the part since we're running unmanned. You could conceivably break another tool by the time it checks.

 

I know spindle time is important, and that checking for broken tools is technically a "Non-Value Added" process BUT, so is the process of changing a broken tool condition that could have been avoided. You can check A LOT of tools in the amount of time it takes to replace ONE.

 

JM2C

[Tim Johnson]

quote:

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I disagree with the whole principle of it because after you run a tool, you should check it. You should not be starting another tol before it has been checked out. You don't know if there's a tool sticking out of the part since we're running unmanned. You could conceivably break another tool by the time it checks.

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I'm not sure about other machines but ours will wait for the check before proceeding with the next tool. I doubt that it takes more than two seconds.

[Dave Ball]

James I agree with you 100% and the Makino can do that. Since the check is done at the wait station, you can check before or after the use of any or all tools, and you can choose to wait or not wait for the check before machining begins. It's activated via M code and a tolerance is preset for each tool. Two seconds is about right so its barely noticed if you choose to wait before cutting.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

What's the difference between the wait while the tool is being checked IN the machine and the wait while waiting for the check on the magazine side??? Just seems like unnecessary hardware to me. Get an in machine laser/touch sensor and be done with it.

 

JM2C

[Rick Henrickson The Boeing Co.]

It is quicker outside the magazine I do not know why for sure, I have tried it both ways with the laser and the tool breakage behind the door.

 

I do use the laser for form tools but that is only because the behind magazine can't verify shapes

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

So if we're talking 3 seconds difference. Lets assume 300 tool changes per day (24 hour), that's 900 sec. or 15 minutes for a grand total of 91.25 hours per year at an $85/hr shop rate.. I guess it would pay for itself in about 18 months. I like gadgets and gizmos just as much as the next guy but looking at the kind of work my customers... I would not be able to make that option add up to a "buy". I would think that for that money I could get a bigger bang for the buck elsewhere (more control options, heat shrink unit, etc...)

 

JM2C

[Rick Henrickson The Boeing Co.]

I think it came standard I know we paid extra for the laser. it is nice to because the behind the door one is interactive with the cell controler to.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Interactive with the cell controller... that certainly is important... your laser does not interact with the controller?