New file Format!!

[Hans Foerster]

Hello people,

 

I have belonged to this site for quite awile now but until now have not posted an email.

 

I am not sure how other members feel about the new file format being introduced into the education system by CNC Software Inc, but I for one am thinking of freezing all our licensces at this College.

 

We pay 5000 a year for our maintenance licensce and what we as a college receive is absoulutly nothing from Inhouse Solutions. In fact it is up to me to download the latest software and patches from their server. I don't know about anyone else but this is getting rediculous. So if I want the help files I must now print the latest PDF files myself.

 

So now the latest attack on the education institutions is to change the file format. So all the industrial training is going to be a shame. I guess we are suppose to train these people on our systems and all the work they bring in from their job sites are going to be destroyed with this new file sytem. All files are none transferable between systems.

 

So who is this actually going to benifit. No one from what I can tell. Oh yes, MasterCAm will try and sell student versions of their software, which I will not be recomending they buy to use. I will not allow their files onto our systems with this new file format in place.

 

Anyways I had to vent, and it is time for all education institutions to stand up and prevent this from happening. Without our help in using their software maybe they will get the hint.

 

Fron a Professor who is seriously going into EdgeCam after this is all said and done.

 

Hans Foerster

Professor Mechanical Techniques

Fleming College

[email protected]

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...Fron a Professor who is seriously going into EdgeCam after this is all said and done...

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Not to defend the core issue but by doing what you're threatening, you would be doing your students a GREAT disservice by teaching IRRELEVANT software. You may as well teach them AuraCAM or some other software barely anybody uses.

 

Here in the states, Community Colleges mission in Industrial Education is to teach what industry uses. Some colleges teach SurfCAM, some Gibbs, and of course others teach MasterCAM. If that lion's share of industry is using Mastercam and you're not teaching it, you're not only violating the spirit of the "cause" of community colleges but you are making your program irrelevant. If you want to make your program irrelevant, how would the Dean feel about that? How would local industry feel about sending their employees there if you're not teaching what they use?

[Reece L Gibson]

Hans, I think they are trying to keep students from purchasing a student copy and in turn using it at a company(along with other people at the company)to make code for industrial parts.As far as you local dealer keeping you serviced, there are other schools that are in the same boat.I think CNC software is so busy, it is trying to keep pace with the service end as well as keeping the product ahead of the curve.

If you want to switch packages,I would check to see what is pre-domiant in your area.I like the fact that you can even get a working key that allows to save and even tool path models.I believe they are working on a solution right now to this issue to let certain educational keys have a right away, but student keys have a different format.

I have had really good luck with the company as a whole(CNC Software).

[#Rekd™]

Hi Hans,

 

I agree that the file format thing is a pain. We can not send files from one department to another(some have old seats or previous versions). as well I can not post files for help on the FTP site because only a few can open it. This will cause problems for me since I have recieved a ton of help on this web site from the Industrial users on how to do things!

 

We have struck a deal with UGS for NX4, six seats for free and ulimited training for all staff!

 

If it is a stundent version problem then why don't they have "student" file extension?

 

As for In-House solutions they have been great to deal with on most things.

 

John Ford

[Reece L Gibson]

jford,can you just keep all the labs updated with the current release version of MC?

Would this solve the different department file issue

"If it is a stundent version problem then why don't they have "student" file extension?"

 

I think that is the whole point of the new file format.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...We have struck a deal with UGS for NX4, six seats for free and ulimited training for all staff!

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Not to bash but this sounds desperate. They have to GIVE it away for people to take it? Why not offer it for something that way there is at the bare minimum; perceived value with it. If it's "free", it's just that, free.

 

About the Department file issue, why would you not want to have all the labs running the same version? If not just for file compatibilities sake, then at least for program continuity's sake.

 

I remember seeing something about Instructor's keys being able to save as *.mcx's not sure exactly sure you may want to contact Mastercam's Educational Division in Gig Harbour, Washington, USA or go here Mastercam Educational Division

 

JM2C

[#Rekd™]

Hi James and Reece,

 

Each Department is a separate division and some do not upgrade for various reasons ($$$$)? I agree that each should be the same which was the case until this new file extension thing, no compatability issues.

 

I will check out the instructor copy though.

 

The UGS NX4 is free because we are an educational partner of UGS, I have not checked it out yet although I have the software but the free training and maintenance are attractive as well we are able to get any UGS software free of charge! From what I have been told it is great for 5 axis but not to simple for 2d and 3d but I believe it is a solids based?

 

John Ford

[Hans Foerster]

I would like to thank everyone with their response. It seems I haven’t been the only one with concerns over the recent changes made by CNC to their education package.

 

I did get an email from Will Slota explaining to me that they made a change to the file format for the education package. Apparently we will be able to load EMCX and MCX file extensions and save to both formats. This will please our industrial partners when they come over for their training.

 

While I was digging further into our agreement with CNC I also noticed they have removed our multi-axis license. I wonder at what time I would have gotten an official notice about this change. I as a professor would look pretty foolish asking my students to do their assignments and then realizing we no longer own the rights to machine multi-axis. The next thing they will probably do is try and increase our maintenance costs so in the end we are paying more for less.

 

I am sorry but it seems CNC Software Inc. is digging deeper and deeper into the Colleges and Universities funds and we are receiving less and less for it. I hope they do realize we are not a profit making industry. Our mandate is to train students and clients and that is getting more and more difficult with the ever increasing costs of this software. I already pay an Art add on for one of my 20 seats. I refuse to pay for any more. Now I guess we are supposed to pay for Multi-Axis for each license. How can CNC Inc change our licenses at a whim? We have always owned Multi-Axis and now it is no longer included. What is one to think about such practices?

 

This company is moving backwards and not forward like other companies such as Autodesk and Solidworks to name a few. I will use Autodesk as an example because this is what I use with Mastercam. When the students buy their text books ($120.00 Canadian) they also receive a complete set of CDs from Autodesk. What is included is Inventor Professional 11, Autocad 2007, Autocad Mechanical 2007, and Mechanical Desktop 2007. All software is their complete industrial version with no limitations but one. The license is good for one year after installation; the students love this. I can certainly tell you I hear less and less about illegal software being used.

 

I certainly can’t get into the heads of CNC Inc and their direction in this matter, but I for one am hitting my head against a wall. James Meyette wrote “Not to defend the core issue but by doing what you're threatening, you would be doing your students a GREAT disservice by teaching IRRELEVANT software. You may as well teach them AuraCAM or some other software barely anybody uses.

 

Here in the states, Community Colleges mission in Industrial Education is to teach what industry uses. Some colleges teach SurfCAM, some Gibbs, and of course others teach MasterCAM. If that lion's share of industry is using Mastercam and you're not teaching it, you're not only violating the spirit of the "cause" of community colleges but you are making your program irrelevant. If you want to make your program irrelevant, how would the Dean feel about that? How would local industry feel about sending their employees there if you're not teaching what they use?”

 

Well I can certainly see James point of view but I really don’t see Edgecam as a piece of IRRELEVANT software. Just the opposite. If it wasn’t for Professors like myself and others who do look at all the issues and not blindly follow James’ advice only 2 or 3 packages of software would be taught at the education institutes in the world. So what we would have is software companies paying millions of dollars to companies to use their software and locking out all others. Once imbedded into the education systems of the world you then start making changes so they have to pay more and more money to teach their software. What a concept! Like Microsoft is trying to do to Linux to prevent them from growing too powerful.

 

If you force Colleges and Universities to change to other Cam packages because of limited resources what is one to do. You only have so many options available to you. Freeze all your licenses and fall behind industry, or introduce new cam packages that will still allow the students to see and use Multi-Axis machining. You know just because we are forced into the latter doesn’t mean the other cam package is irrelevant. What does it mean when more and more Colleges and Universities are forced in this manner? The other Cam packages will start to grow and have a presence within a larger market place. I am quite sure industry would also like more options when deciding what to introduce into their companies.

 

You know all these issues started innocently about a few months ago when I received an email about the education changes. It feels like I have a gun held to my head and told we are going to make these changes and you will go along for the ride whether you like it or not. I am quite sure I am not the only education institution happy with the ride; they just haven’t looked at all their changes yet. In most institutions you will see that an IT department gets the software and the actual Professors won’t know about the changes until the software is loaded into their systems. Boy will they get an eye opener when they tell their students to get their projects done.

 

So what do we get for 5000.00+ dollars a year? Slowly but surely we will be moved to a basic license with limited uses. Already they have removed all our Multi-Axis capabilities. For 20 seats that I carry I am lucky to get 4 box sets sent to me with manuals and CDs. I only get them because I have to complain about that too. I have a reseller who disables my licenses ever year for “our own good”, so every summer I have to scramble and try to get everything running before I go on holidays. If I don’t catch it in time they change the capabilities of my hasps so my add ons that we paid for are disabled and unable to use. So again I have to keep reminding them we actually own the license unless CNC Inc revokes them. To this day I am still waiting for my Art license for my hasp. Still hasn’t arrived.

 

Am I frustrated?!!!

 

You all have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

 

Hans Foerster

Professor Mechanical Techniques

Fleming College

555 Bonaccord Street

Peterborough Ontario

705-749-5520 ex:2226

[email protected]

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

As to the Multi-Axis license issue... for Industrial Clients CNC made it available. New customers needed to purchase the add-ons. So, by default yes, they took it away. But have you called CNC Educational and explained to them you've "...had Multi-Axis for X number of years and I need it and I feel I should not have to pay extra for it...". Have you tried that appraoch? I also cannot get into CNC's head but I believe the reason they stopped adding Multi-Axis to Mill Level 3 systems is because th Lion's Share of the users were not using it. So I'm guessing they wanted to begin charging new customers for this add on. Just a guess, again, I'm not in CNC's head.

 

I'm certain you have no idea what it would cost to have 20 industrial seats otherwise you would see your $5000 investment a little differently (without knowing the current pricing, I would have to guess that with solids, maintenance, and multi-axis the price would be over $200k) So lets pretend it is $200k, your Institution is paying roughly 2.5% of the industrial price.... how is that not reasonable? I personally do not believe that CNC should give their product away. Education here in the states has been spoiled to the point where so many institutions feel "entitled" to free stuff from software vendors. It's just wrong IMHO. UG is giving their stuff away for free for one reason and one reason only - they are trying to gain in-roads. Trust me on this even if you don't agree with a word I say, there will come a day that you will pay for those seats of UG. There is no such thing as a free lunch, you will pay, one way or another, you will pay. Besides, CNC AND In-House don;t make ANY money on education. The only reason that it's even worthwhile is because students today are Programmers tomorrow and will use what they learn. It is their investment in the future.

 

As to the relevancy of Edgecam... I've been in over 1,000 different shops in 18 states in the US in the nearly 15 years I've beeen in this industry and I can count on 1 hand (with fingers to spare) the number of shops I have seen that use Edgecam. If that's not the definition of irrelevant... I don't know what is. Technologically they are VERY relevant, but in the real world (not academia - sorry for the apparent dis-respect Professor), they are a drop in the bucket and getting smaller. But you have to teach what is relevant where you are which means you should be polling industry in your area. You should have a steering committee made up of Industry Professionals in your area that makes suggestions on Industry trends etc... I am a member of my Community College's Steering Committee and have been for over 5 years now. We get together 1-2x per year to discuss trends and the direction if the industry. We used to teach EdgeCAM, but we could only find 2 companies in the are that used it and they didn't even send employees to the College for training on a regualr basis, the college wasted a lot of money (on software and maintenance) over the years.

 

As to timing out the HASPS for your "own good"..., just a guess here but it's probably for CNC's good in case the HASP were to get stolen.

 

JM2C

[High Sierra Plastics]

Not to beat a dead horse Hans, but didn't Apple computers give away free systems to colleges and schools to try and get a market share of the users? You can see how they just took over the PC market with that logic.

 

You can tell the noob workers entering the work force by the system there familar with and how amazed they are that no one is using Apple systems. After a while they have to turn over to the system everyone else is using. You still see MC users every once in a while asking how to run MC on an Apple.

 

Oh by the way about 90 percent of the boot leg MC systems I see are the educational versions.

 

Henri

[cadcam]

quote:

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Oh by the way about 90 percent of the boot leg MC systems I see are the educational versions.

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As a collage instructor and and a dealer I see this all the time.

[Hans Foerster]

I guess opening up a dialog on the education forum doesn't seem to work without getting blasted with all this irrelevant information.

 

What possible does removing parts of the Mastercam license to the eduction systems have to do with using illegal software? All one has to do is search the internet and I am quite sure they can get what ever software they want. Saying that 90% of that software is all educational is one hell of a leap, especially when you can't even post code with it.

 

I am not going to cover all the statements made by James but really you don't believe everything you wrote. If the Colleges and Universities had to pay the full costs of all software sold I feel very few sons and daughters would be able to afford to go. The costs would outway the benefits and thank god the software companies don't see it the same way.

 

On my last point, why should I have to talk to my reseller when my licenses are renewed. Their comes a point in time when you must rely on them not making changes without notification. You must agree you wouldn't be to pleased if everytime you renewed your license something was changed.

 

Hans

[High Sierra Plastics]

I guess your mind is made up then Hans?

 

I'm sorry about the irrelevent statements about bootleg software but that to me is one of the reasons the student versions, your having so much trouble getting a handle on, are affecting the changes in file format.

 

Having taught classes for the last 7 years some of the "students", were themselves using illegal software in there shops and could not get the support anywhere else but in the schools. That I think is one of the reasons for the drastic changes you are dealing with in the MC community.

 

Don't get me wrong I don't like a lot of the changes either but sometimes you have pay to get the knowlege you need. Whether you like it or not.

 

I think with Mastercam going from MFC windows format to a full API application is giving them a chance to really control the software and they are doing that. Wait until Vista becomes available if you think it's bad now.

 

I will continue to use Mastercam and Solidworks or whatwever is being used at the time.

 

I believe if you think switching to Edgecam to solve your problems your just putting a finger in the dike.

 

Henri

[High Sierra Plastics]

Oh and you did ask how other members felt.

[Hans Foerster]

I think we must follow all my posts. My issue with the education software has already been solved. CNC is already making changes to allow the education institutions to open and save all formats.

 

The only issue I was talking about at present is the Multi-Axis add on. I will be talking to my reseller in the New Year, but I felt this issue important enough that all Professors and Instructors get fully informed with all the changes that are occuring with the Mastercam licenses.

 

I am sorry you took it as if I already made up my mind to switch. Thant is not the case. As a well rounded Professor I look long and hard before making any rash desicions concerning the education of my students.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Hans said in his first post;

quote:

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...Fron a Professor who is seriously going into EdgeCam after this is all said and done...

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Hans said in his latest post above;

quote:

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...I am sorry you took it as if I already made up my mind to switch. Thant is not the case...

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I don't know what you could have said to make someone think that...

 

quote:

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...If the Colleges and Universities had to pay the full costs of all software sold I feel very few sons and daughters would be able to afford to go. The costs would outway the benefits and thank god the software companies don't see it the same way...

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Nowhere am I suggesting that Colleges and Universities should pay full price. That's just asinine. I was pointing out the HUGE bargain Educational Institutions are getting when they buy software. I agreed with you that you should be able to have Multi-Axis since you had it before. I told you how to deal with that.

 

quote:

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...Their comes a point in time when you must rely on them not making changes without notification...

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Ummmmm, last I checked, EVERY release for some years now comes with a "Whatsnew.*" file. I feel it is MY responsibility to read that file. Matter of fact, it comes up when you install the software - so if your IT department is not imforming you that there are changes - not necessarrily what those changes are - then you should have a chat with them IMNSHO.

 

quote:

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...I guess opening up a dialog on the education forum doesn't seem to work without getting blasted with all this irrelevant information...

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Quite the contrary. I'm fairly certain that CNC has had at least a look at this discussion and is probably taking notes. CNC SOftware from my personal experience has been VERY responsive to it's customers. Try dealing with CATIA so you can get some perspective. Those B@$+@R)$ don't even want to smell you if there's a problem.

 

Hans, you have a unique situation - Multi-Axis education with Mastercam. For years, I did not know of a single College here in Southern California teaching Multi-Axis (and there are at least a dozen). Henri and I were one of the first Trade Schools in our area to teach it. Now there are more but still, most Professors don't know how to teach it. They've never run the equipment so they don't even know where to begin. They don't know the difference between Tilt/Tilt, Tilt/Rotary, or Rotary/Rotary. So if I were working at CNC, based on my background and knowledge of learning Institutions, I would assume they were not teaching Multi-Axis. I'll bet 99x out of 100 I'm going to be right. You are the 1 in 100 that do. No problem, you call up your reseller and address it. If you don't get satisfaction, you call CNC directly. What's the big problem???? But to just come in here blasting away, you open yourself up for scrutiny and criticism.

[Rick Damiani]

quote:

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The only issue I was talking about at present is the Multi-Axis add on. I will be talking to my reseller in the New Year, but I felt this issue important enough that all Professors and Instructors get fully informed with all the changes that are occuring with the Mastercam licenses.

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I'm an educaiton reseller and beleve me I feel your pain. While there aren't many schools with the funds for multi-axis machines (yet), there were a number of them that still offered entry-level multi-axis training, and this issue is one that comes up over and over again.

 

The root of the problem is that CNC Software is using some third-party modules for multi-axis and must pay that third-party vendor for each license. Some things that CNC has done to try to make up for that are:

 

- All new EDU seats are Mill/Lathe/Wire/Router enabled and come with Solids, Ras2Vec, Engrave, True Shape nesting, and all translators except for CATIA. Formerly, you'd need to pay extra for lathe, solids, or wire, and you'd need to pay for Pro/E if you wanted that.

 

- Network floating licenses plus Design and Design LT mean that you can get multi-axis on a few seats and design on a few others to help keep the cost under control.

 

- Student licenses are less expensive and timed for 14 months rather than six months plus a 3 month extention.

 

- Multi-Axis, should you choose to get it, is one price for all multi-axis functionality, rather than broken up into seperate modules like it is for industrial seats.

 

- Indexing and axis substitution are not multi-axis toolpaths, so mill level 3 still has a lot of usefulness on 4 and 5 axis machines. Only 4D and 5D toolpaths are affected by the change.

 

As for UG and other 'free' packages - most CAM software of MasterCAM's caliber sells for $20K+ per seat. Giving the software away means that EDU-Only resellers like me are pretty much gonna starve to death if they don't have industrial clients. Who's phone call do you think is gonna get returned - the school that represents a $0 sale (and commission) or the guy that spent $20K plus maintenance and training? Who would make it onto your todo list?

[Will Slota]

"- Indexing and axis substitution are not multi-axis toolpaths, so mill level 3 still has a lot of usefulness on 4 and 5 axis machines. Only 4D and 5D toolpaths are affected by the change."

 

Indeed tool plane and WCS as well as 3+2 type toolpath operations can be created by the Educational versions including the student software.

 

In addition, the Rotary fourth axis toolpath is still available to our educational customers with out having to purchase the new multi-axis add-on.

 

We significantly reduced the educational price of our software a while back to the extent that if a customer were to purchase a seat with maintenance and multi-axis they would still be paying less than what they would have paid for version 9. Plus they get Design, Router, Wire, and Solids as well.

 

The Student software will not be able to create any of the "Multi-axis" toolpaths. They will have to create them on the schools seats instead of at home.

[Rick Damiani]

quote:

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Will, I spoke with Gig Harbor about being able to read and post process student's programs. They say it will be available with the release of X2 Mr1 within the first quarter. Is this your understanding?

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I just tried doing it with a student file and it seemed to work. i.e. I created a simple pocket path in a student X2 and opened it in an institution X2 and posted it. Were you having trouble doing this?

[Rick Damiani]

I said:

quote:

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Were you having trouble doing this?

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Boy, that sounded bad. What I meant to type was something like: "Is that what you were talking about?" or something like that. I'd have changed it, but the 'edit' feature seems to have a timer on it.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Yes, you have about 20-30 minutes to chang eyour mind, unless you REALLY want to change it then you can get a moderator to do it.

[Jayson Kramer]

All education seats can post , just the student version that is diffrent can not.

But as you stated you can bring the students file in at the school and post. Just Took mike to the airport yesterday and was getting all this straght for me to.

[Exodus]

Hmm, the student version can't post but can save, but the demo my instructor gave me was able to post, but not save?

 

I find that funny

[cadcam]

I would like to know about this Demo copy the instructor gave you.

Does it post out more then say 20 lines and past 2 deciamal?

[Rick Damiani]

quote:

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One of our students purchased the student software last quarter (through Paton). We were not able to open his programs on our lab computer, so he was not able to work intechangeably in the lab and at home.

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Ah, I remember that problem. X MR2 for your lab and the student should fix that right up, and X2 seems to be working correctly as well. E-mail me if you need disks.