Rigid Tapping holders. Tension and Compression or Tension only ?

[RuffKutt]

We are going to start utilizing our Rigid Tapping. I was wondering which holder to use.

The machine is a Cincinnati Arrow 1000 (cat40). I have read that tension only is reccomended but why and is this the general opinion ? Thanks for your input.

[chris m]

This may be a stupid question, but here goes:

 

If you are rigid tapping; shouldn't the tools be rigid? If the machine has synchronized tapping, use a rigid holder; if you can't use a rigid holder then you aren't rigid tapping.

 

If you must use a float; I use tension only as taps should be underfed about 1%.

 

[ 10-25-2002, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: chris m ]

[Tony]

Rigid tapping

In my control I have to callout the tool as a

1/2 -13 Tap (Not just tool 18)etc.

OR it will not Sync the feed and the spindle

Together.(As in Me slowing down the spindle

But the feed stays the same SNAP)!

[RuffKutt]

As we all know the theory world and the real world are 2 different things. I have spoken to a few other people (4 to be axact) at other shops and none of them used "Rigid" tooling, they all used some sort of floating holder. I am just trying to draw on the knowledge of all the people here because I have no knowledge for myself.

[Scott Bond]

Hi

I usually am only making 1 to 3 parts:::

 

One way I use the rigid Tapping is just to start the taps threads, then finish the holes to depth on our tapping table. If it's a common thread and thru I just finish them on the machine (example 1/4"-20 thru).

I do not specify a holder in my tool list.

[Trevor Bailey]

Everytime I have done rigid tapping, I have always used standard toolholders. Even with a Fadal, I tap 4-40 holes with normal ER collet holders and rigid tapping for some of my tooling. If you are going to use the "tension" holders, I would start with "lite" feeds & speeds as to alow for over travel in "Z" and also this should help the machine "catch up" after it reverses the spindle.

[TheePres]

I use ER collets also, but have found that you have to tighten the heck out of them or they will gradually shift in collet. So i found some ER collets from Lyndex that have square shank, these work great but kind of pricey.

[chris m]

quote:

---

kind of pricey

---

That's putting it pretty mildly; those Lyndex tap collets [the ET series anyway] are STEEP!

 

That being said, we use them. We also use the Sandvik snap-in style quick change rigid holders which work beautifully but are ludicrously expensive.

 

quote:

---

As we all know the theory world and the real world are 2 different things. I have spoken to a few other people (4 to be axact) at other shops and none of them used "Rigid" tooling, they all used some sort of floating holder.

---

Ah... the dreaded real world. In my humble opinion if you bought a machine with sychronized tapping it doesn't make any sense to put floating holders in it. Your contacts must either:

 

1) have older machines without synchronized tapping capability

2) Be tapping at very high speeds or with a huge machine where the spindle is not stopping and reversing exactly right

3) Be tapping a seriously fine pitch where the machine won't synch up with sufficient precision to avoid breaking taps

 

If this is not the case I don't understand why they would put floating holders in the machine.

 

Good luck

C

 

[ 10-25-2002, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: chris m ]

[Tony]

Let's see..

I Use Rego-Fix swiss Holders

with the sq.in the collet.

 

You can't put a price on Quality!

(Easy to say when it's not my $)!

 

[ 10-25-2002, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: Tony ]

[chris m]

Not to start another war about Fadals, but this comment is beautiful:

quote:

---

Even with a Fadal

---

I LOVE it

[RuffKutt]

SO is the underfeeding the tap thing also a myth? This was the reason (I thought) for using a tension only holder.

[jspangler]

Hi

on my Haas with rigidd tapping, i use the square shank collets, and never have any problems.

The only time i've ever had a problem tapping is when I didn't have the right square shank holder and tried to make do with a regular TG100 collet. They kept slipping or pulling out on the reverse cycle. I changed the setting on the machine that reverses the tap from 4X'x down to 2X's, and it helped a little, but Scott Bonds suggestion of using the hand tapper for the job was much better.

 

Especially if you don't have a table full of holes to tap.

 

John

[RuffKutt]

Chris M.

 

"If you must use a float; I use tension only as taps should be underfed about 1%"

 

Then this is not "rigid".

 

I understand what you are saying but then you turn around and say "use tension only" which is not what I would call rigid.

 

(Spelling edit)

 

[ 10-25-2002, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: RuffKutt ]

[antelopemy]

hehe....let me tell something here.

 

about the rigid tapping and floating tapping.

most of the cnc machine has synchronized tapping ,but one important thing is in the connection of Z axis and the drive ( encoding motor), if the drive is offset from the axis , that means the drive is not hold directly to the axis, it is a belt between them ,so the accuracy is different when the belt going to stand the difference load. of course the belt-drive axis are the very cheap machine, even you tap it with only 4-40 (equal to M3 tap) with only depth of 3 times of the tap dia,it going to break too.if someone told you that his machine always break the tap in rigid(correct feed and rpm) that mean it is belt-drived , so have to use floating holder,if your axis is direct-drived (of course is the expensive one) , then you can tap it by rigid holder and you can go as deep as the flute of the tap and use tapping oil . i always do that with M16 to M22 with the depth of 40 to 60mm direcly by rigid on m/steel and cast iron but stainless steel.if you tap it by hand in M20.....how many hole you can make in one day and how many days you can stand? when you first walk into a workshop and you don't have a manual for it, try to look at that axis connection .not the collets first

[cadcam]

I have used standard collet holders for years and some fancy ones to.

 

But when it comes to rigid tapping that is what it is called Rigid. You should not need a floating head.

 

What happens if you have blind holes? This were I love the rigid tapping.

 

I have rigid taped 0-80 holes in 304 and worse and had great luck.

 

I do not understand shops that have this option and do not use it,

It drives me nuts.

 

So have at it and enjoy.

 

JM2C

[Tony]

My Machines are ALL belt Driven.

I've been Robbed!

[McRae]

The Syncronous Taping OPtion should use a Soft Synchro Holder like the following. Emuge Holders Tapmatic also makes something like this. Regofix will supply a nut where a sealing disk can be used for coolant thru tapping (Highly recommended!)

[STEELTHOM62]

I rigid tap everything on our Arrow1000.I never had a problem, even when re-entering a hole to take the tap depth deeper a few times.We use all Lyndex holders, they're pricey but worth every penny.

 

G84.1 or nothing!

[RuffKutt]

STEELTHOM62,

What model of holders are you using?

[chris m]

quote:

---

If you must use a float; I use tension only as taps should be underfed about 1%.

---

Sorry about the confusion. What I meant to say is that when I must use floating heads [as I do on our older Matsuuras from the early '80's] I use tension only to allow the pitch of the tap to pull the holder a little going in the hole using a 97-99% feed depending on pitch of the tap and depth of thread. Be careful with these holders as a deep hole with a large-pitch tap can run the holder out of travel.

 

Standard ER20 collet chucks from Lyndex, ETM, Techniks, etc will all accept ER20 tap collets such as the Lyndex units described earlier.

 

Example:

Lyndex CAT40 ER20 collet chuck: C4017-0020

Lyndex ER20 Tap collet for .194 shank: ET20-.194

 

[ 10-25-2002, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: chris m ]

[ssibiski]

I have 3 machines but only one is new enough to do rigid tapping.

At first I was a little unsure of it, but it has never let me down yet.

I use regular ER16 collets.

The only time I had a tap slip was while tapping 4042 1/4-20 40 times a part. (tap broke after about 30 to 40 parts might have been from wear though )

I use floating heads on the other machines. They work well, but I would rather use rigid tapping everytime.

 

SSibiski

[STEELTHOM62]

I'm not sure of the model name/number but they're the rigid(Bilz type)holders(no tension / compression).They use Lyndex tap adaptors.We have 3 different size holders and adaptors from 1/4" to 1.25" .I'll check on the actual model no.

 

Adaptors-NT05,NT10,NT15

holders-C40R5

 

[ 10-25-2002, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: STEELTHOM62 ]

[RuffKutt]

I already have a few of the Lyndex collet chucks around here, so all I need to do is buy some of the collets that are made to hold taps ? Is this correct.

[chris m]

Yes that is correct; just be prepared for sticker shock as the collets are quite $$

[STEELTHOM62]

Actually,Lyndex makes special holders for rigid tapping(so do others,but....).If I wasn't so inept at this, I would provide you with a link to their website, but you'll have to type it yourself .

 

www.lyndex.com

 

click on tapping holders and you can download their catalog section for these.They're not regular collets per say , that's why I refer to them as adaptors.You'll love how easy it is to change taps.

 

Ooooh, so that's how you do it

 

[ 10-25-2002, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: STEELTHOM62 ]