MasterCAM in need of...

[Fig sign]

I mean that it`s not bothering me that the current software looks old-stylish ,as some people say .

like this :

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I really think its menue system could be a little less windows 3.1 looking.

(Version 9.1 is the version i'm talking about to.)

It looks as if its not taking the least bit advantage of the Windows API. Now I'm sure there are plenty of API calls, but take a look

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[J Coulston]

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I mean that it`s not bothering me that the current software looks old-stylish ,as some people say .

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It might not bother an experienced user, but for me a novice it is a nightmare. I am used to looking for settings in certain places. Most windows applications that I use the parameters are stored under Tools -> Options (AutoCad, SolidWorks, Word, Excel, Access). It is a lot easier to at least have an idea of where to look than to have to wade through menu after menu looking for a setting. Ahhh, I know I saw that once but were was it. It is getting easier the more time I have in the seat but it is still frustrating looking for some parameters.

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I am a former AutoCAD user, I Highly reccomend taking a hint from AutoDesk when it comes to interface.

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I whole-heartedly agree, take a look at AutoDesk, and SolidWorks they are GUIs that work.

 

Right now MCX is just a dream to me, bring on MC9.1 and lets crank out some code.

 

John

[Rick Damiani]

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Besides the obvious UI differences, it should be noted that there are other advantages to be had with a Windows-complient app. Improved memory utilization and multithreading are just a couple of things that can be taken advantage of in a Windows environment.

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Multi-threading and memory utilization can be taken advantage of by applications that in no way, shape, or form resemble other Windows applicaitons. 3D Studio MAX is one example that comes to mind, as does Combusiton. In fact, it seem to be odd-ball looking applications like those that take advantage of advanced features of the Windows API. More mainstream-looking apps like MS Office and AutoCAD are not multi-threaded.

 

MasterCAM *does* use the Windows API. If it didn't, it would have to run in a console session and would have to forgo all the grapical bits that make it useable.

[Fig sign]

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Multi-threading and memory utilization can be taken advantage of by applications that in no way, shape, or form resemble other Windows applicaitons. 3D Studio MAX is one example that comes to mind, as does Combusiton. In fact, it seem to be odd-ball looking applications like those that take advantage of advanced features of the Windows API. More mainstream-looking apps like MS Office and AutoCAD are not multi-threaded.

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Good point, Rick!

The tradition is a good thing.

There is no need to change the interface look now and then in race for a fashion , some conservative things are good one like Mercedes.

And it is good for people upgading from say ver6.

Even in Autocad you can work with and old-style side menu and work from command prompt,use aliases and so on.

 

[ 02-18-2003, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: plasttav ]

[Bullines]

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Multi-threading and memory utilization can be taken advantage of by applications that in no way, shape, or form resemble other Windows applicaitons. 3D Studio MAX is one example that comes to mind, as does Combusiton.

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3D Studio Max is a true-blue Win32 app. Believe it or not, it is possible to alter the appearance of Win32 windows and dialogs. Windows Media Player and ICQ Lite are another examples that springs to mind.

 

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More mainstream-looking apps like MS Office and AutoCAD are not multi-threaded.

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Are you sure about that? Here's a screenie of Microsoft Spy++ showing many threads (not just UI threads...plenty of worker threads) of an idle Excel 2002 with a blank open workbook:

 

 

Don't confuse the UI with "under-the-hood" stuff. So what I'm saying is many advanced techniques such as multithreading are much easier to use in a true Win32 or MFC app than in a Win32 Console App. There's nothing wrong with Mastercam now but like with anything, there's always room for improvement. Wouldn't something like this be sweet (just a sample):

 

code:

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void COpMgrDialog::OnVerifyClick()

{

// do some stuff

 

AfxBeginThread(&threadVerify, pArgs);

 

// do some more stuff or return control (limited?)

}

 

 

// the thread function

int threadVerify(void* pArguments)

{

// do verify routines and other stuff

 

return 0;

}

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You can continue to work while Mastercam is

[Rekd™]

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I whole-heartedly agree, take a look at AutoDesk, and SolidWorks they are GUIs that work.

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Just because a GUI is familiar, doesn't mean it "works". People tend to go with what they're used to. They're afraid to actually learn a new way of doing things because they're stepping away from the "known". Solidworks, Autodesk, even windows, are cumbersome GUIs. Mastercam's GUI flows.

 

Don't be afraid to learn new things, new ways of doing things. You might actually like what you find when you try something new.

[kathy]

Sorry, but the present Mastercam UI does not flow, and is very cumbersome to use!!! (imho)

The menu commands are archaic. I hate getting so deep into a menu sequence and have to back out because another command I want to use (for example Analyze) is 'active' several levels back in the sequence. Command availability should be concurrent not sequential.

 

I would like to see more mouse button functionality, especially when a dialog box is active.

 

When I make a picking mistake in say X-Form, I would like to backup to my last selection set, not bomb out completely forcing me to start over.

 

I would like to see alternatives to using a single color to designate the 'Result' and active group. If I have a lot of geometry with different colors to distinguish between them, I can’t tell what entity I need when they are all 'magenta'.

 

And last but not least: multiple part windows within one Mastercam session…

 

Kathy

[Guest]

Kathy,

You would probably like the Solid Edge menu system.

It has toolbars that can be customized easily and the main bar stays while a "ribbon" bar displays with the choices pertinent to the task at hand.

I believe it is the most intuitive menu system I have seen.

I chose Solid Edge over Solidworks because of the menu.

[Rick Damiani]

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Don't confuse the UI with "under-the-hood" stuff. So what I'm saying is many advanced techniques such as multithreading are much easier to use in a true Win32 or MFC app than in a Win32 Console App. There's nothing wrong with Mastercam now but like with anything, there's always room for improvement. Wouldn't something like this be sweet (just a sample):

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Looking at your image above, I see modules and widgets listed as 'threads', which is awfully misleading. Looking at Excel in Task Manager I see an idle session has two threads associated with it. An idle MasterCAM session has three. Neither one of them is coded to run more than one 'thread' at a time, and so neither one of them will take any advantage of an increased CPU count. This is what I mean by 'multi-threaded', and that is not something that developers get for free only when using MFC, and that they cannot get otherwise.

[Bullines]

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Looking at your image above, I see modules and widgets listed as 'threads', which is awfully misleading.

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Those are UI threads. Large, and well-designed, apps typically have a separate thread for UI functions. Those other threads "EXCEL2", "EXCEL3", etc. are worker threads. Those tend not to show up in the Windows Process Viewer. Spy++, which is included with MSVC, is better suited for thread inspection.

 

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Neither one of them is coded to run more than one 'thread' at a time, and so neither one of them will take any advantage of an increased CPU count.

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Multithreading != multiprocessing

[jadaro]

In Light of the discussion turning somewhat to a OS war, I see if fit to explain I would perfer that sofwtware developers like AutoDesk or MasterCAM switch to Linux is for this:

 

Linux is highly portable, it can be run off of a variety of processors for one.

 

All that is required to make a program run on any of the given linux distros (geared toward any number of different processors) it a little code tweaking (custom compiling) of the EITHER BOUGHT or Downloaded source code.

 

You could have linux running your CNC machine, and hell, if I had the choice to have linux control any of my machines, I would. (Especially those running a Windows NT based OS. Mazak is one of those.) Linux Multithreads its applications naturally, I believe. Not to mention has support for multiple processors.

 

Linux can be run on SGI (Silicon Graphics machines)...which are graphically more powerful that standard PC's

 

Linux is also very stable, the OS can never be brought down by (given the program was written professionally) any of the user run applications. One of the horrid pitfalls of windows is that it has extrodinarily PATHETIC memory management, and I speak for ALL versions of windows when I say this, yes XP too.

 

Now I'm not looking for a revolution, things won't change until they have to, but that's exactly what slows development down.

 

Open source software can be maintained by the founders, however, given that it is open source, this would make available for the public, the ability to change the code-submit it possibly, and change the whole of the software for the better of the industry. For once, it wouldn't be so bad for people who actually use the software to crawl down the neck of the programmers, suggestions-or even skilled programmers could aid in develeoping the software, just have a group to maintain the project, etc.

 

There are many aspects to the program, grpahics etc. When you make all that available, then the sotware can be observed more dynamically, from many different fields of programming. Filtering nessesity, or convenience to the final product would be the dev's job.

 

In my opinion the real job of any software developing company is to support its product(s) to the fullest degree possible. There is so little of this that is done with care.

 

If it is piracy that Developers are worried about, go the way of redhat, and make a subscription based support system. This would create profit for the company, make it more worth the company's wild to inquire about how the software is working, etc., busy programmers as they would be getting more insite as to what the customer wants, and they may even get code contributions that they may have otherwise not forseen.

 

I don't see how linux could be an objectionable OS though, its inner workings are not for the faint of heart, but neither is using mastercam!

 

One of you aregued that Linux was...

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The nature an ideals of the free software movement argue heavaly against the involvement of companies like CNC Software. Until the climate of that movement changes, I don't think you'll see much high-end software in that space. Even if Microsoft were to vanish tomorrow, I think you'd see folks like Sun take thier place, as they espouse a model that actually allows developers to survive. If Linux were to do that, it would cease being Linux.

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Linux itself is High end software. Just because you don't have to sacrifce a lamb or devote your soul to the devil doesn't make it low end. Whe will people stop associating pricey with high end.

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I'd be very surprised to see a Linux version, actually. Folks that use Linux are, for the most part, unwilling to pay for software. That makes it hard for a developer to justify any signifigant investments in Linux.

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For the record, i am very willing to pay for software to run on linux, as well as any subscription service.

I would be willing to pay for a version of MasterCAM when it comes out for linux(optomistically speaking) or if it were free, the SERVICE is/would really be of more concern.

 

Simple minded people see a problem with free, they don't realize that there are other ways to justifyably and profitably be compensated for the work they've done.

 

(Quotes pulled -not from name-, but from ideas. They simply summed up the typical anti-linux stereotypes)

[jadaro]

An application can be Multithreaded, techincally, and not need more than one processor for each thread. Or it can be multithreaded, with mlutiple processor threads.

 

Don't really know for sure.

 

 

*Gets off his soap box now*

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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Open source software can be maintained by the founders, however, given that it is open source, this would make available for the public, the ability to change the code-submit it possibly, and change the whole of the software for the better of the industry. For once, it wouldn't be so bad for people who actually use the software to crawl down the neck of the programmers, suggestions-or even skilled programmers could aid in develeoping the software, just have a group to maintain the project, etc.

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Mastercam is "Open" in the sense that all you need to develop for it is knowledge of VC++ (and you must have VC++ too so you can compile it) or VB Scripts.

 

Linnux is not for the masses, it's just that simple. If I were a developer of applications I would not even consider it either at this time. When a good percentage of my customers were asking for it then I would seriously consider it. Actually, Mastercam would better serve it's constituency(sp?) by developing for Multiple Processors. IMHO

 

JM2C

[Bullines]

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An application can be Multithreaded, techincally, and not need more than one processor for each thread. Or it can be multithreaded, with mlutiple processor threads.

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You got it

 

Like I mentioned before, multithreading != multiprocessing (read: multithreading does not equal multiprocessing). Multithreading is the ability of a CPU to execute different parts of a program, known as threads, simultaneously. For example, instead of calculating 2+2 then 4+4 and finally 8+8, it would be much quicker to calculate 2+2 and 4+4 and 8+8 at relatively the same time. The latter case would be an example of multithreading.

 

On the other hand, multiprocessing is the use of more than one CPU in a system (within a single computer or many computers).

[Rick Damiani]

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Linux itself is High end software. Just because you don't have to sacrifce a lamb or devote your soul to the devil doesn't make it low end. Whe will people stop associating pricey with high end.

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High-end, in this context, means expensive. Not 'complex' or 'robust'. MasterCAM, becasue of the specialized and limited nature of the market, and the development effort involved to properly serve that market, is rather expensive. While I am aware of a number of very sophisticated applicaitons running on Linux, I am not aware of any high-dollar, highly specialized applicaitons offered for sale on that platform.

 

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Simple minded people see a problem with free, they don't realize that there are other ways to justifyably and profitably be compensated for the work they've done.

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I don't have a problem with free. I use lots of open-source stuff on my PowerBook, including an interesting CAD program called BRIL-CAD. Free or service-contract supported software, in and of itself, is not a problem. The sticking point is the whole 'fair compinsation' thing.

 

Look at how much trouble CNC software has with pirated applicaitons today. When the source code for the OS functions that support the security systems are out there, how much larger a problem do you think that might become?

[Bullines]

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While I am aware of a number of very sophisticated applicaitons running on Linux, I am not aware of any high-dollar, highly specialized applicaitons offered for sale on that platform.

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How about Oracle and Kylix?

 

IMO, the main problem holding Linux back from the desktop is ease of use. It's still fit for the realm of development, servers and geek toys.

[jadaro]

Rick Damiani,

Quoteing you quoteing me:

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When will people stop associating pricey with high end.

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...That was the entire point of that paragraph. "When will people stop associating pricey with high end."... Just because it costs a lot, doesn't make it high end.

 

A good salesman could probly sell you a plaque mounted copper engraved portrait of president Lincoln for 19.95 through mail order. However, when you get the thing in the mail, you'll just realize that you been sold a penny glued to a wooden board.

 

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Look at how much trouble CNC software has with pirated applicaitons today. When the source code for the OS functions that support the security systems are out there, how much larger a problem do you think that might become?

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Piracy is a problem indeed. There are always going to be problems with that...However, I would like to emphasize that you can't pirate a service contract. If the software is free, then all the dev has to do is maintain its paying customer support contracts. In order to maintain full dominance of its software, it would have to be the absolute best at providing help service for its cutsomers ...which it should do reguardless of anything anyway!

 

On a note of security, just because a software's internals are open to the view of anyone, doesn't mean that its insecure all of the sudden. Linux tself is a testement to this- Its on of the more secure OS's around and it's entirely open source.

The reason this is so is because the insecure areas are found faster due to the number of people working on the software.

 

I think it would do a world of good to make Windows open source, after all, we see atleast one new virus a month take advantage of new security related windows illnesses.

 

[ 02-22-2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: jadaro ]

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...geek toys.

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Ahhhh, the geek factor comes into play.