New 5X Mill

[Mic]

Hi

 

My company is close to purchasing our first 5X machining centre.

 

Our top demand is accuracy.

 

We've narrowed down the field to:

 

Mikron HPM 450U

Okuma MU-400VA

 

Anyone here with expirence with the above models? Or perhaps input on missing candidates.

 

Best regards

Mic

[YoDoug®]

If you decide to go with the Okuma make sure you get the 5 axis auto tuning option. It is designed to calculate and correct inaccuracies between the two rotaries for ultra high precision work.

 

http://www.okuma.de/5AxisNews.htm

 

Higher accuracies in 5-axis machining

Five-axis machining accuracy is greatly affected by rotary axis misalignment and other “geometric errors.” Okuma's 5-Axis Auto Tuning System measures geometric error using a touch probe and datum sphere, and performs compensation using the measured results to tune motion accuracy on 5-axis machines. In this way 5-axis machining accuracy on a higher level is achieved.

 

Quick and easy tuning by anyone

Previously, manual measurements of the indexing center were bothersome and time-consuming, but with the 5-Axis Auto Tuning System the measurements are made automatically by the machine. Measurements can therefore be done with stable accuracy in a short time by anyone. In addition, the results of tuning are applied regardless of whether the operation is in auto, manual, or MDI and whether Tool Center Point Control is on or off. Setup and machining can therefore be done with the same operations as before.

 

[GoetzInd]

Don't think you can go wrong with either. However, if you get the okuma you can alway bother Doug for free support

 

Mike

[Mic]

I saw a machine demo or their 5X auto tuning. It was very impersive. First they ran the tuning. Aftwards they put a special tool in the spindle with 3 bluetooth indicators ( XYZ on it ), zero them, moved the table around with TPC on. All the time all 3 measurements was within 0.003mm.

 

Does the MU-400 have enough Y-axis storke working at A-90? The Z axis slide looks huge and the spindle has little protrusion from the Z-axis. I'm woried that I need a too high fixture for having the Z-axis clearing the table that I'll be too close to the Y endstop.

[YoDoug®]

There can be interference points when the A is tilted. The key is having good software for simulation and on machine collision avoidance capabilities. It can be difficult to do small part on a 15 inch table/table 5x machine. This topic was discussed here previously. http://www.emasterca...=20#entry758332

 

I would also suggest looking at a Chiron FZ18 FX. It is a table/table 5x about the same travels as an MU400. Fanuc31 or Seimens control. Chiron uses dual opposite loaded cycloid drives on their rotaries with standards glass scales. Extremely fast and accurate rotaries.

http://www.chiron.de.../series-18.html

[Chipmakr]

We have 3 MIkrons here. One 5 axis. Love them. Once you get familiar the the heidenhain TNC you'll love it. Awesome machines.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

IMHO, no 5-Axis discussion is complete without including Matsuura. They've been doing it since it before most even considered it. With CAMplete in the package, posting and simulation are taken care of.

 

JM2C

[Newbeeee™]

IMHO, no 5-Axis discussion or horizontal or high speed or generally dogs doo-dahs and overall very high spec vertical discussion is complete without including Matsuura. They've been doing it since it before most even considered it.

JM2C

James - I added a small correction

[Mic]

I know the Matsuura and have seen the MAM72-42V, but this model lacks the full Thermal Meister package and therefore only has thermal compansation in Z axis. Therefore the machine will need a warmup periode go get the Y axis in the right spot each moring.

 

Any one with expirence with the Makino D500? Thermal drift from cold to warm.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Don't have any experience with the 42's. Just 25, 35, 63, and 100H.

[Mic]

According to my intel the 42V will be phased out next year. Price vise it's to close to the updated 63V. But I really like the 300x300 pallet size.

 

The new 35V just shown at JIMTOF is also a nice machine but here I find the pallet size too small.

[Greg Williams]

I would be looking at something with Direct drive motors and good local support. Anything Japanese built will be OK.

 

I would get the company to cut a simple demo part using swarf cutting in AL, Something simple but difficult like this part http://www.hsmworks.com/overview/multi-axis-milling you want 3 samples, 1 from the centre of the table, 1 at the edge of the table and the last in between. Then get the parts measured by an independant CMM Any surface finish marks of dimensional differences will show up. Tell them you want a complete solution, CAM, Posts, simulation etc etc.

[Mic]

Thanks Greg, sounds like an good idear.

 

DD motors for 4/5th axis is on my wishlist, but it's not that common on machines in the size we're looking at.

[YoDoug®]

I spent the afternoon today at a customer helping them test the In-House MU post for their new MU400VA that we just installed this week. We only needed to make a few small tweaks to the machine def and the machine's parameters to get a nice TCP swarf toolpath rolling. The machine also has Tool posture control. I have a file that Mcam posted big vector corrections that are not really needed. I want to try the tool posture control on that file. The IPM feedrates are nice too, no worrying about inverse time.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Inverse sux. I hate it.

[Greg Williams]

^^ I am with them, The world has moved on from ITF ^^

[Watcher]

Have you considered Hermle machines too?

 

Keep away from DMGs...

 

Just saying...

[Newbeeee™]

^^^ a customer of ours has a couple of Hermle's and swears by them.

I've never understood the love that DMG's get - they look weak to me, and a couple of mates who have worked them say they don't take knocks well (wasn't them that knocked them).

From what I've seen the best looking machine they have produced is the new drill/tap 700. That does look a nice machine.

[GnoGueyJose]

DMG's are weak but I'm biased. The "Toliet Bowl" style 5-Axis is pretty much the worst design of all the types that are out there. They are great for Axis Travel, but they are weak, especially the further you get away from center. I would NEVER even consider one of these. Trunion first, Nutating Head Second, and Toliet Bowl is a DISTANT 3rd. So distant it's not even a consideration.

[Greg Williams]

+1

[uncle_dolan]

DMG's are weak but I'm biased. The "Toliet Bowl" style 5-Axis is pretty much the worst design of all the types that are out there. They are great for Axis Travel, but they are weak, especially the further you get away from center. I would NEVER even consider one of these. Trunion first, Nutating Head Second, and Toliet Bowl is a DISTANT 3rd. So distant it's not even a consideration.

 

It may be worth noting that not all DMG machines have a "toilet bowl" design...I used to run some DMU80 monoblocks that had the Baxis head rotation. Where I am currently working has some DMU 70 evo's and a DMU 50 evo all with the "toilet bowl" design. I will admit that it can leave you wanting at times, but it does also present benefits that you do not get with other 5 axis designs. I have worked with DMG machines since i started and as such know that they have a lot of weaknesses. I have not been able to work with ANY other 5 axis milling machine, and I am keen to some time. By the sound of it there are better options out there! One thing I will say about DMG tho, are that their lathes are unreal! I used to run a CTX 420 and then later a CTX 1150? beta and they were amazing! besides a few faults lol. The Siemens shopturn that they ship with defintely helps things.Very powerful programming interface for lathe!

[Mic]

Thank you for all your input.

 

We ended up ordering a Mikron HPM 450U with 20k spindle, 7 pallet magasine and 120 ATC.

 

Looking forward to get this new toy in April next year.

[GoetzInd]

Awesome. Don't forget to post pics when that baby arrives!

 

Mike

[Mic]

Will post some pictures when it's installed.

 

Forgot to mention we're getting CAMplete together with the machine.

[GoetzInd]

Forgot to mention we're getting CAMplete together with the machine.

 

Now you're just rubbing it in.