Horizontal Machining Centers

[jas6142]

We have 7 Enshu's here and they have been pretty rock solid (even with lack of preventative maintenance).

[Joe788]

 

Mazak is a fine machine if you don't want to run the machine for 10-20 years without costing $$$ to maintain it compared to other brands. Mazak parts are the most expensive comparably to other Japanese brands, and is anybody going to argue that they have the poorest service/support of any of the Japanese brands? For certain types of work I think the ROI of Mazak is going to be tough to beat, but if its going to be a long term piece of equipment for the company I'd look other places.

 

That's funny. I've got a PFH-5800 that's creeping up on 10 years old, and it'll still beat up on any other 500mm 40 taper HMC out there. Power, spindle speed, rapids, feedrate, travels, accuracy, etc. Not to mention the box stock 10 year old control still has more options and functions than any other Japanese machine but Okuma.

 

As far as cost of replacement parts - I think you'd have to compare apples to apples parts, and ages of machines. Like your metering valves for your Matsuura.

[mkd]

.

[Sticky]

That's funny. I've got a PFH-5800 that's creeping up on 10 years old, and it'll still beat up on any other 500mm 40 taper HMC out there. Power, spindle speed, rapids, feedrate, travels, accuracy, etc. Not to mention the box stock 10 year old control still has more options and functions than any other Japanese machine but Okuma.

 

As far as cost of replacement parts - I think you'd have to compare apples to apples parts, and ages of machines. Like your metering valves for your Matsuura.

 

Yeah I like the controls, Fanuc could learn a few things there. My biggest beef with Mazaks are the ballscrews, I've replaced too many of these (and none of them were on my old sqt10ms). I don't like that they don't have way lube supplied to the ball nuts, or the thrust bearings, oh wait there are only thrust bearings on one end

 

I'm sure Mazak does make some machines with big ballscrews, thrust bearings on both ends of the screw, big ways etc

 

The only issue I had with metering valves with my HMC was that they were going to take too long to get from Matsuura, and the only company that had them in the states wanted $5000 for teh meters and manifolds, which I was able to buy from Germany direct from the mfg for about $350.

 

So far everything I have had to replace on a Matsuura, has been comparatively cheaper then Mazaks, and there is no comparison on quality. Especially spindles. My Mazak spindles are a joke compared to my Matsuura spindles, last 1/4 of the time, and cost 20% more.

[Joe788]

Yeah I like the controls, Fanuc could learn a few things there. My biggest beef with Mazaks are the ballscrews, I've replaced too many of these (and none of them were on my old sqt10ms). I don't like that they don't have way lube supplied to the ball nuts, or the thrust bearings, oh wait there are only thrust bearings on one end

 

I'm sure Mazak does make some machines with big ballscrews, thrust bearings on both ends of the screw, big ways etc

 

The only issue I had with metering valves with my HMC was that they were going to take too long to get from Matsuura, and the only company that had them in the states wanted $5000 for teh meters and manifolds, which I was able to buy from Germany direct from the mfg for about $350.

 

So far everything I have had to replace on a Matsuura, has been comparatively cheaper then Mazaks, and there is no comparison on quality. Especially spindles. My Mazak spindles are a joke compared to my Matsuura spindles, last 1/4 of the time, and cost 20% more.

 

LOL Sounds like you're getting into more apples and oranges, along with a little rose coloring on your Matsuura parts availability and cost. Only place in the country that has them is 10X the cost you were able to get them for from some other country, and that's good? We've got 3, 4, and 5 axis Mazaks. All of them have everything that you're insisting they don't, including a combined 60,000 hours all on original spindles. Highest is 25,000+ cutting hours with no sign of slowing down. I don't know what's happening to all of your ballscrews and spindles, but we've never replaced any of those either.

 

Not to mention we make parts on the horizontals that you couldn't even fit into the same year HPlus405.

[Sticky]

Joe, I'm glad they are working out for you, I really am. You seem to be more the exception then the rule, and I'd tend to think that you know that as well. Mazak parts/support/reliability horror stories aren't exactly a rarity.

[Joe788]

You seem to be more the exception then the rule, and I'd tend to think that you know that as well. Mazak parts/support/reliability horror stories aren't exactly a rarity.

 

On the internet? Sure. Lots of people who knew a guy who heard Mazaks suck. But if all shops made choices based off of what they heard on the internet, instead of real life experience, NONE of us would be using Mastercam. Didn't you hear? It's the worst, most bug infested, unusable, machine crashing, file corrupting, slow processing POS that was ever created. I read it on the internet! There are plenty of people who had bad real life experiences with Mazak, but it's a tiny fraction of those who've had success. You'll find more "Mazak shops" than any other brand out there. There's a reason Mazak sells more machines in one month than Matsuura sells in a year - and it's not because they're inexpensive, or the spindles last 1/4 of the time.

[Sticky]

On the internet? Sure. Lots of people who knew a guy who heard Mazaks suck. But if all shops made choices based off of what they heard on the internet, instead of real life experience, NONE of us would be using Mastercam. Didn't you hear? It's the worst, most bug infested, unusable, machine crashing, file corrupting, slow processing POS that was ever created. I read it on the internet! There are plenty of people who had bad real life experiences with Mazak, but it's a tiny fraction of those who've had success. You'll find more "Mazak shops" than any other brand out there. There's a reason Mazak sells more machines in one month than Matsuura sells in a year - and it's not because they're inexpensive, or the spindles last 1/4 of the time.

 

I wasn't talking about the internets, I'm talking real life. You must be somewhere in or near the bay area becaus ethat is the only place people don't seem to absolutely xxxx on Mazak. If you come to the NorthWest, your bubble will pop. I'll admit I only about 8 shops locally that have them, its just that only one of them actually likes them. Their not popular here for a reason, and its not because they are reliable, beastly machines.

 

If I could get service and support here I'd probably have them because they are pretty cheap.

[Joe788]

Amusingly, here in socal, we bought the first Mazak because of the service and parts issues with Moris and Niigatas. As far as the "bubble" popping in the Northwest, perhaps. But with 60,000+ hour MTBF, I could probably wait an extra few days for service without getting too irate. Probably not as irate as finding out a pallet changer shaft for a 13 year old Mori is going to take 6 weeks from Japan though.

 

Their not popular here for a reason, and its not because they are reliable, beastly machines.

 

That's actually the exact reason why Boeing has more Mazaks than any other brand.

[?Mark]

I don't like mazaks. Personally I think they are couple of notches below other "M" named equipment. (Matsura, Makino, Mori...)

[Sticky]

I don't like mazaks. Personally I think they are couple of notches below other "M" named equipment. (Matsura, Makino, Mori...)

 

No way, Mazak is is just as good or better. Doesn't matter what material you cut, Mazak is top shelf, the other guys charge lots because they don't make very many machines

[Newbeeee™]

The company I mentioned above also has mazaks. They swear by Matsuura and swear at the mazaks.

[Mic6]

Love this thread

[?Mark]

^^^

+1

[Joe788]

No way, Mazak is is just as good or better. Doesn't matter what material you cut, Mazak is top shelf, the other guys charge lots because they don't make very many machines

 

The numbers speak for themselves.

 

I'm sure all of these guys kept buying dozens and dozens of Mazak horizontals, lathes, Integrexes, and Variaxis, because they couldn't afford the "good" brands, or the spindles that last 4x longer.

 

http://www.mantool.com/facilitylist.php

http://gcmfg.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=208&Itemid=314

http://littleent.com/capabilities.html

http://www.cleanmach.com/equipment.php

http://aceroprecision.com/machines.php

http://www.northlandmachine.com/equipment.html

 

These are just a few people I know that had good experiences though. I'm sure if I guzzled enough Koolaid, I could come up with some reason why they keep buying those Mazaks despite how inferior they are.

 

BRB, gotta go tell Rob to stop making those Sikorsky swashplates on his Mazak.

[?Mark]

"BRB, gotta go tell Rob to stop making those Sikorsky swashplates on his Mazak"

 

It's the programmer, not the machine

 

Joe, you're taking it way too seriously

[mkd]

random mazak question here:

on their horizontals, are Tool Length Offsets usually positive or negative??

i briefly worked at a shop where the the tool lengths were POSITIVE :no . with frequent setup by mediocre talent, the machine would run with ZERO!! in the offsets..SMASHING into the tombstone. :realmad:

 

why would a machine tool supplier EVER ship a machine this way??

[YoDoug®]

random mazak question here:

on their horizontals, are Tool Length Offsets usually positive or negative??

i briefly worked at a shop where the the tool lengths were POSITIVE :no . with frequent setup by mediocre talent, the machine would run with ZERO!! in the offsets..SMASHING into the tombstone. :realmad:

 

why would a machine tool supplier EVER ship a machine this way??

 

I've worked on Okuma, OKK, Hitachi, Mori, Nigata, Doosan, and Kia horizontals and I've never seen one set up that uses negative tool offsets.They were all positive offsets. Likewise I used Okuma, Renishaw, Blum, and Marposs tool setting software and have never seen those using negative offsets.

[GnoGueyJose]

We're a Matsuura house. Service and support has been exceptional. We don't run much aluminum. Mostly Ti, Inco, CroMo, etc...

 

It has nothing to do with brand loyalty, we found that they have been the machines that meet our needs best and the local Apps support is exceptional. Our dealer just stole a guy from Makino so that would be a good add to an already stellar group.

[mkd]

I've worked on Okuma, OKK, Hitachi, Mori, Nigata, Doosan, and Kia horizontals and I've never seen one set up that uses negative tool offsets.They were all positive offsets. Likewise I used Okuma, Renishaw, Blum, and Marposs tool setting software and have never seen those using negative offsets.

I'm glad i asked the question, then; didn't realize this seemingly moronic (to my apparent ignorance) setup was that pervasive.

so let me get this logic straight; on these machines setup with positive tool offsets, if you want to fudge the offset of a tool to go deeper into the part, you would make the offset less positive (smaller number)?

my work on Haas, mori, cinncinatti, femco&toshiba boring mills and hitachi seiki machines all had negative offsets. z home was away from the tombstone, therefore TLO were (correctly) negative from there in the Cartesian system.

oh, and if some knuckle head forgets to set the offset of the tool, the machine alarms with a z over travel instead of SMASHING into the tombstone.

[Joe788]

I'm glad i asked the question, then; didn't realize this seemingly moronic (to my apparent ignorance) setup was that pervasive.

so let me get this logic straight; on these machines setup with positive tool offsets, if you want to fudge the offset of a tool to go deeper into the part, you would make the offset less positive (smaller number)?

my work on Haas, mori, and hitachi seiki machines all had negative offsets. z home was away from the tombstone, therefore TLO were (correctly) negative from there in the Cartesian system.

 

The Mori and Hitachi are still run with positive offsets by most. You use a negative work offset and a positive tool length. Technically the positive tool length is the "correct" way, as the work offset will be describing the actual distance from the machine home, to the origin of your part, while the tool length will be describing the actual physical length from the tip of the tool to the spindle gage line. It's pretty rare to find anybody but Haas and Fadal guys doing the negative tool offsets these days, but it works just fine if you're just doing 3 axis stuff.

 

 

oh, and if some nuckle head forgets to set the offset of the tool, the machine alarm with a z over travel instead of SMASHING into the tombstone.

 

Unless they forget to put a Z value into the work offset.

[mkd]

The Mori and Hitachi are still run with positive offsets by most. You use a negative work offset and a positive tool length. Technically the positive tool length is the "correct" way, as the work offset will be describing the actual distance from the machine home, to the origin of your part, while the tool length will be describing the actual physical length from the tip of the tool to the spindle gage line. It's pretty rare to find anybody but Haas and Fadal guys doing the negative tool offsets these days, but it works just fine if you're just doing 3 axis stuff.

 

i guess this little guy is going to have to agree to disagree. both TLO and work offsets should be negative on your average horz center. it is negative to go from home position to the tool setter Plus it is negative from the tool setter to center of rotation or face of tombstone.

anything else is just dumb :harhar:

and dangerous...

Unless they forget to put a Z value into the work offset.

difficult to do on a mazak, as they make it super easy to set.

however, if you did set work offset to zero accidentally with my method, it would either overtravel in the z pos direction or never reach the part. safer is better.

positive TLO's are just crazy...and the emperor has no clothes

[GnoGueyJose]

Negative tool offsets are for rooks that don't know any better. Try using an offline tool presetter to get those numbers. Yeah, have fun with that.

 

We can play "what if the operator forgot..." all day long. If he's to fecking stupid to figure out where the DistanceTo Go positions are, well, then he's too fecking stupid to even be working in a machine shop. I'd never hire that guy even if I just needed a warm body. I can't remember the last time I worked in a shop that used negative tool offsets. Even the strictly VMC shops with no rotary equipment in the early 90's... positive tool offsets.

[GoetzInd]

Negative tool offsets are for rooks that don't know any better. Try using an offline tool presetter to get those numbers. Yeah, have fun with that.

 

+1. You ALWAYS want to define a tool length by gage length IMO. You can set up probing and presetters for bogus negative lengths but keeping them caibrated to masters is gonna be a PITA. As for preventing crashes, there are a whole lot of things you can do with macros (specifically the toolcahnge macro) to prevent them.

 

Mike

[GnoGueyJose]

[/size]

 

As for preventing crashes, there are a whole lot of things you can do with macros (specifically the toolcahnge macro) to prevent them.

 

Mike

What we've done in our tool change cycles is if there is a 0 or a 99. in the offset, it automatically runs the tool length measurement cycle. Easy peazy no crashie. Negative offsets are just a ridiculous way to address tool lengths and I've never understood the allure. I mean I guess it's easy but the problem is the numbers don't mean $#!+. You look at the number and it's like "... ok, how is that relative to the part?". I don't know, all of our machines are multi-pallet so I have one tool intgeracting with a minimum of 2 operations on at least 2 differnt part numbers at any given time, so that negative offset bull$#!+ just doesn't cut it in that environment.