Machine tool suggestions part 2

[Pitka_Guru]

Our company has narrowed our search down to two candidates for a New high speed 5 axis CNC.

 

The race is between a Matsuura MAM72-63v PC6 vs a Mazak VRX i600 with a single level Palletech system with 6 pallets. The MAM72 is equipped with a 20K BBT40 spindle, 120/240 tool base and all the fanuc 5 axis options. The Mazak features an 18k BBT40 spindle, 80 tools and the Mazak SmoothX control.

 

Both machines look very good but we have some questions about machine access with the pallet option. We are concerned about getting at the part to measure feature's while it's in the machine. Is the standard procedure to move the pallet to the loading station, measure it and then return it to the machine and continue proving the program?

 

Or is there a better way to check bore diameters and tap depths/sizes before running more parts?

 

Thanks in advance.

[Newbeeee™]

Without hesitation, I'd go with the Matsuura.

A couple of mates run them in different factories.

Notable problems:-

ensure the foundation is spec.

ensure that all 5ax options are loaded on the control

I believe one mate had a sw upgrade which cured a repeatability problem (although not 100% sure with this) 

one had a filter issue - the thru spindle coolant was letting chips (very very small) get thru, and caused I believe one tool to have a length issue due to compacting in the back of the taper. Hard to believe thinks I, but that was the 'reason' for his issue

 

But the things run and run and run with no issues once sorted

[chris m]

Let me preface this by saying that I think Mazak, as a company, sucks

 

Now that this is out of the way; how do you like the performance of the Mazak machines you already have?

How is their support for you?

 

If you have a good relationship with them in your area, and the machines have treated you well, i would think they have the inside line on a complex new machine. I would think their machine is a damn sight cheaper, as well.

[crazy^millman]

You see what company I took you to when we meet up at IMTS. Hopefully that gives you the idea what my thoughts are on the subject.

[Newbeeee™]

You see what company I took you to when we meet up at IMTS. Hopefully that gives you the idea what my thoughts are on the subject.

KFC?

Starbucks?

Give us a clue

[Zoffen]

I run/program a i700 palletec cell and i love the ergonomics of the machine. I can walk fully into the machine and measure features. Bores and bore gauges are easy to use and read. I am only 5'7" but the machine works perfectly for me. You can teabag the part if you wanted! Only thing that i hate is when coolant drips on my head, but a quick airgun usually takes care of that.

[Joe788]

We're doing the same shopping right now. Not sure what the price list looks like in the other hemisphere, but up here the difference between the 80 tool magazine and the 120 tool magazine on the Variaxis is like $9,000 - so well worth the upgrade even if you don't think you need 120 tools.

[Zoffen]

Ya we have 120 and thats not enough. Watch out for the pot to pot time on the 120 mag. If your tool is used less than 30sec your going to be waiting on toolchanges.

[Pitka_Guru]

 

Ron showed me the MAM72 in Chicago and I was very impressed. Plus I have yet to hear a bad thing about the machine from users on this forum and out in the field.

 

The access to measure the part is something that is a bit of a concern for us. Ron,or any other MAM users, how do you find the access to the part when you need to measure it?

 

As for our relationship with MAZAK, it's not great. As some others have stated about MAZAK charging to get machine models for simulation we had a similar issue getting our 3 year old Integrex's software unlocked so we could use CAM software and do 5axis simultaneous. That was an extra 10k and we were not very happy about it. Mazak has big presence here while Matsuura is starting to get back into the market after 20 years so there is a confidence issue regarding support.

 

Thanks Hebrew Hammer, we do have instances where the tool use is 30 seconds. What is the tool change speed like with 120+ tools on the MAM?

 

Another question for you Hebrew, what post and verification do you run and does your machine have the Smoothx control?

 

Thanks

[Guest]

 

 

...how do you find the access to the part when you need to measure it?

 

:cough: Renishaw Probing :cough:

 

[Guest]

...What is the tool change speed like with 120+ tools on the MAM?

 

Another question for you Hebrew, what post and verification do you run and does your machine have the Smoothx control?

Tool 1 to Tool 240 (worst case change)...17 seconds on an older style 240. T120 I would have to take a guess and say about 2-3 sec. faster.

 

The new 320's will do T1 to T320 around 12-13. That tool robot is really fast now.

[Pitka_Guru]

Hey foggy,

 

Thanks for the toolchange numbers and the probing idea. How do you program the probe to measure the parts? Are you using mastercam's productivity plus or are you using a macro or something else. This is all new to us and we are trying to understand as much as possible before we sign a PO.

 

Are there any aspects of the MAM's you aren't happy with? Do you have the lift up chip conveyor with hyper disks?

 

 

Thanks mate!

[Zoffen]

Another question for you Hebrew, what post and verification do you run and does your machine have the Smoothx control?

 

Thanks

 

I built a post for our machine as i'm really into that type of stuff and it allows me to do alot of fancy stuff whenever i have a brain blast or hear a good idea somewhere.

 

We use vericut and we purchased the machine model from Mazak. We got charged for the model and after hearing that alot of other MFG's throw it in i think that part was pretty lame. 

 

I built the control and machine myself as i like to be able to tweak and customize.

 

This was our first 5 axis and we went into it with the mentality that it is worth the time to get the process right before we fill the machine up. So far it has been working very well!

 

Our machine does not have the smoothx control. It has a Matrix II which has been super as far as i have used it. 

 

I got the 30 minute demo of the new control at IMTS and i was very impressed by it. It has dynamic type pocketing built into Mazatrol now and you can program off a solid model. Not really a big deal for alot of people but it is cool nonetheless. Also you can't beat the extremely improved processing/feedback speed! Another cool feature is that you can preview your gcode program and the control will show you where the machine will have trouble keeping smooth motion, accuracy, and keeping up with the programmed feedrate.

 

If you have any more questions feel free to PM me and i'd be glad to help you out with some first hand info.

[chris m]

 

 

As for our relationship with MAZAK, it's not great

 

In that case, if you have the money, I would suggest the Matsuura. Matsuura builds really beautiful machines, and they last forever; over the last [2] years we pushed a 1981 M760V and a 1990 RA-II out the door, still running, because we just didn't have the floor space anymore.

 

I was concerned when Matsuura and Methods parted ways here, wondering what kind of service we'd get from Yamazen, but the machines never need anything, so it hasn't mattered.

 

Is there a reason why those are your only choices?

 

C

[Guest]

Hey foggy,

 

Thanks for the toolchange numbers and the probing idea. How do you program the probe to measure the parts? Are you using mastercam's productivity plus or are you using a macro or something else. This is all new to us and we are trying to understand as much as possible before we sign a PO.

 

Are there any aspects of the MAM's you aren't happy with? Do you have the lift up chip conveyor with hyper disks?

 

 

Thanks mate!

You're welcome.

 

I program the probe basically manually. If I'm just doing a spot check, I'll use Renishaw EasySet. One line cycles that turn on the probe, run the cycle and turn off the probe. You just have to manually place the probe in position (within about 10mm is the window IIRC). If I need to probe in-cycle, I use the regular cycles. Mastercam's Renishaw stuff is cool... in theory. The problem is the Inspection Plus stuff is better then Productivity Plus. We've got a customer with both on the same machine and it's a mess. So... If I need probing cycles to run "in-process", I will program drilling cycles with the Probe Tool Number. I know where the cycle has to be to execute so that is where I position the drill cycle, then I edit the cycle into it. A little klugy but I've been doing in so long now that it's pretty easy.

 

Things I'm not happy with... pretty minor stuff really. The new MAM's come with Matsuura probing software. If you've ever used Renishaw Inspection PLus, you won't like it. So, I spent a day going through Renishaw's Inspection Plus software to allow it to co-exist with the Matsuura Stuff (meaning instead of using #500- whatever, it now uses #700- whatever. Then the customer can choose which to use. I don't like that I had to do all the work. The factory should have done that. But, like I said, minor stuff in all reality. The other thing I don't like is on the 35V, it comes with a Blum Laser. The laser is fine, I'm just not a real fan of Blum Software. So we have a REALLY good Renishaw integrator we work with. He makes ours run with Renishaw software. There's nothing wrong with Blum, but the vast majority of our customers are most familiar with Renishaw. Strictly a preference thing. Ford/Chevy, BMW/Mercedes, etc...

 

Chip Conveyors come standard on US MAM-72's IIRC. MX Series are optional (to remain at a certain price point)

[Bob W.]

If I was looking to get a 5-axis machine Mazak wouldn't even be in the running.  I would look at Matsuura or Makino, though my feeling is that Matsuura has the edge in the 5-axis realm.

[Guest]

...

I was concerned when Matsuura and Methods parted ways here...

It's been nothing short of fantastic for the West Coast. When the cost of certain machine model drops $75,000 overnight just by eliminating a NVA link in the cost chain ... that makes a HUGE difference. It's now a competitively priced machine : I say NVA for us because the West Coast has a FULL Service Dealer (Sales, Service, Applications, tech support, etc...) so 95% of what Methods had to offer was not even an advantage for the West Coast.

 

Matsuura will ALWAYS be more money than 90% of it's competition, it's just a better machine plain and simple. Most often people are not buying Matsuura for the price, they are buying it because of the advantages it offers the customer over it's competition. While some builders are focusing on bells and whistles that do not change the form fit for function of the machine itself, Matsuura is focusing on delivering the best possible machine tool. While other builders cut corners on options to lower the cost, Matsuura delivers a machine tool that does not require to keep going bac to FANUC to add this and that. Things like Dataservers, TCP, WSEC, all the available Work Offsets, Tool Offsets, MACRO Variables, Tool Life Management, etc... It ALL adds up and if you're honest about what you want from a machine tool these are value added features and functions that expand the capability of the machine tool. THe MAM72 series ARE the standard by which other 5-Axis Machine Tools are measured.

 

I still at Mori for coming out with their "MAM Killer" (their exact words I $#!+ you not). The NMV series machine are a joke. THe tool magazine is a joke, the options they sell it with are a joke, the iron is a joke, the rigidity is a joke, everything about it is a joke. It's worse than a "me too" machine. We've replaced about a half-dozen of them in the last year, and as those NMV pieces of $#!+ get older, we'll be replacing more and more of them. : If you're reading this and have an NMV and think "our machine is fine", well... maybe it is and you should consider yourself lucky. Or, perhaps ignorance is bliss. But I'll tell you right now, the design was flawed from the beginning. It was built on buzzwords and not sound proven machine tool design. That's a fact. :

[Pitka_Guru]

In that case, if you have the money, I would suggest the Matsuura. Matsuura builds really beautiful machines, and they last forever; over the last [2] years we pushed a 1981 M760V and a 1990 RA-II out the door, still running, because we just didn't have the floor space anymore.

 

I was concerned when Matsuura and Methods parted ways here, wondering what kind of service we'd get from Yamazen, but the machines never need anything, so it hasn't mattered.

 

Is there a reason why those are your only choices?

 

C

We looked at DMG/Mori and Mikron as well. Both companies are not well supported in our part of the world (like everything else). Mikron has only one HSM in Australia and it's a 3 axis and no pallets so support is a big concern. DMG didn't have any of us fooled we couldnt take them seriously, the machine's look great though lol.

 

Mazak's support and service isn't great either but at least we know what we are getting with them.

 

Matsuura is supported via New Zealand and are trying to enter the Aussie market so we'd be their first machine in Australia. They do pretty good in NZ and theY made a pretty good pitch to us last week.

 

As for the price of the Matsuura vs Mazak they are pretty much identical here. I have heard that many Aussie machine tool dealers like to overcharge which is why they are so even on price.

[Pitka_Guru]

Oh, one thing I forgot to ask is we have a vacuum chuck, does anyone know who if it will integrate with either Matsuura or Mazak's pallet systems?

[Newbeeee™]

In the UK, on a hori vacuum is no issue with a Mats as it runs through the centre of the pallet changer.

Don't know about 5ax though.

[Guest]

Oh, one thing I forgot to ask is we have a vacuum chuck, does anyone know who if it will integrate with either Matsuura or Mazak's pallet systems?

There's a company in Washington with a MAM72-100H that uses vacuum fixtures on pallets in their pallet cell. No issues that II am aware of.

[YoDoug®]

Have you looked at Okuma? There's a few users on here that testify to the quality and performance of Okuma 5 axis machines. You can get the MU6300V with a pallet system and all the tools you would want. 

[Mick]

We looked at DMG/Mori and Mikron as well. Both companies are not well supported in our part of the world (like everything else). Mikron has only one HSM in Australia and it's a 3 axis and no pallets so support is a big concern. DMG didn't have any of us fooled we couldnt take them seriously, the machine's look great though lol.

 

Mazak's support and service isn't great either but at least we know what we are getting with them.

 

Matsuura is supported via New Zealand and are trying to enter the Aussie market so we'd be their first machine in Australia. They do pretty good in NZ and theY made a pretty good pitch to us last week.

 

As for the price of the Matsuura vs Mazak they are pretty much identical here. I have heard that many Aussie machine tool dealers like to overcharge which is why they are so even on price.

 

 

New Zealand eh? You gotta watch those Kiwis

[dstryr]

Lots of matsuura kool-aid in this thread

[Pitka_Guru]

There's a company in Washington with a MAM72-100H that uses vacuum fixtures on pallets in their pallet cell. No issues that II am aware of.

Mr. Leghorn, do you know if this is done using a Matsuura supplied air connection or if the company in Washington designed this system themselves?

 

We have one job that requires vacuum fxturing and it is long cycle for us so it would be ideal for the pallets if possible.

 

Thanks