Starting a shop, looking for machines.

[kunfuzed]

Well, it's been a little over a month now since I lost my job of over 10 years as a Machinist and Programmer for Erickson Air-Crane.  But out of the ashes I hope to raise an empire! Lol, or at least get by, without werkin for the Man.    I've found some some side work from a couple of acquaintances/shop owners and have been doing some Solidworks drawings to keep me busy in the meanwhile.

 

So down to the nitty gritty.  Ive got a pretty decent start at the equipment and tooling, with the help of my Dad's old shop consisting of a couple lathes, Bridgeports, universal mill, and a surface grinder. Decent shape, but all well used. Also found a nice shop to rent with 3-phase just a few miles from my house.  Now I need some CNC equipment.  The work I have some leads on will be 80% simple aluminum parts.

 

My two choices right now are between a Hardinge VMC600 (not sure the vintage yet, going to call here shortly) about 8 hours away up the west coast, and a 2008 Haas TM-3P with a BRAND NEW un used HRT-210 4th(no enclosure).  The Hardinge is about $15k, and the Haas is $36k with the indexer.  I have the cash for the Hardinge, but without the Haas would require getting some loans, either conventional, or family.  I like the fact that the haas is in great shape, and will be turn key, but being an open machine, with a slow spindle/rapids, and only 10 tools in the carousel, am afraid it could become a PITA real quick.  The hardinge is under power, so just gotta drive up and see it, but my fear is I'm buying someone else's problem.  Tho full enclosure, 20 tools, and reasonable spindle/rapid speeds are attractive.

 

What's your guy's opinion here?

 

Thanks,

Chris

[RaiderX]

kinda loaded questions without details.. what year and condition Hardinge etc etc. I do not have direct experience with hardinge cnc mills but have heard good things. I do have a lot of experience with haas. good machines, you get what you pay for (be prepared for some down time), cheap-easy to fix.

 

Keep a budget for tooling and cutters etc. trust me it adds up fast and hard.

 

quick question, what is your aprox. location.

 

Doug

[Newbeeee™]

kunfuzed - the Hardinge is probably a Yang. Not the strongest machine in the world but more than adequate for cutting ally. It will more than likely have a 8k rpm spindle and the beauty of these machines is they're simple (to fix).

I would never go with an open guard machine as you'll be cleaning up all the time. And working for yourself you wont have time to do that...

I really wouldn't go into debt - gently gently catchee monkey - buy it cheap, make a bit of money, buy another cheap and go from there.

By this time you'll have decided if working for yourself is the lifestyle choice that you want, or the lifestyle choice that you hate!

Good luck.

[kunfuzed]

kinda loaded questions without details.. what year and condition Hardinge etc etc. I do not have direct experience with hardinge cnc mills but have heard good things. I do have a lot of experience with haas. good machines, you get what you pay for (be prepared for some down time), cheap-easy to fix.

 

Keep a budget for tooling and cutters etc. trust me it adds up fast and hard.

 

quick question, what is your aprox. location.

 

Doug

Just called the guy.  It's a 97, he bought it new, and is still making parts.  Yes made by Yang.  Said hardinge service is crap these days.  Said the airlines and some of the wiring was a problem over the years but replaced.  Fanuc O control, pretty basic.  Doesn't have live 4th axis option, but will index by m-codes i think?

 

I'm in Grants Pass, Southern Oregon.

[Machineguy]

there was a job opening about 5 years ago at Erickson air crane as a 5 axis programmer / machinist. What happened with that?

I saw it when I was looking for a job.

 

Machineguy

[kunfuzed]

Never filled it.  Me and one other guy got tasked with learning it, on a worn out Haas VB-1.  They the hardest time even finding decent "3 axis programmer / machinists".  They hired like 20 guys, and only maybe a handful had useful mastercam knowledge.  The machine shop got up to 44, and 35 got let go in the layoff.  Brilliant corporate management strategies...

[Bob W.]

A few questions...

 

1.  What sorts of parts will you be making?

2.  Where would you like to be in 5 years?

3.  Will this be your primary source of income?

 

If it were me I would buy a NEW Haas and finance it.  I would get a VF2 with a side mount tool changer and some of the key options and my budget would be ~$65k or so.  I'm not sure what these go for these days but that should do the trick and the factory has very good financing terms.  If you honestly think you can find the work and pull it off you should do it right and get a machine you can grow into over the next few years and NOT a machine you will grow out of in a year.  You also want a machine that will allow you to be competitive at a reasonable shop rate and not have to kill yourself at $25/hr because the machine is so damn slow it takes all night to make a bracket.  Here are the keys to success IMHO.  Work your @ss off, no down time...  Work making parts, then when that is done work on learning every detail of the machine, set up tool libraries, work on your post, create Mastercam templates, make generic fixtures (sub plates, etc...).  INVEST in your business with sweat equity.  You will never have worked as hard as you will when you start your own shop, if you want to be successful.  Prepare to work 60+ hours per week making every part that comes your way to develop a solid customer base.

 

The reward will come in a few years when you have a solid customer base, a paid-for machine, and a six figure+ net income.  If this will not be your primary source of income (aka, side job) then get the cheap machine as it will do great for that and taking a bigger risk wouldn't be justified.  

 

One thing I should add is that this is just my opinion.  I have taken this approach and it has worked for me but that doesn't mean it is right, or the only way by any means.  There is a lot to be said buying with cash and zero debt but I don't have that much patience :-)

[Newbeeee™]

  ... but I don't have that much patience :-)

After seeing what you have done in the time you have done it, this could be understatement of the century!

[THEE THAINZ™]

Since you are in the market for machine tools and as Bob wisely suggested about buying new Portland is going to have their tool show again this year.  Called the Northwest Machine Tool Expo it's April 1st and 2nd at the Oregon convention center. It looks to be better than the last couple have been lately. It would be a great opportunity to possibly make a few connections.    

[CADCAM3D5AXIS]

Hi Chris

what is the current feel for mfg in your area of southern Oregon these days ? After the spotted owl fiasco killed everything  a few years ago  in the timber ind,   Things have looked pretty bleak since then. I am curious what or how you see things in the area since you have to live in it at this point in time. I have been to Ericson Air  and they seemed to be the only large mfg in the area that i found at the time. If you have any thought or gripes feel free to im me if you would like to not air the laundry list of PITA items.

Thanks  for your time and

Good Luck on your new venture

CadCam

[kunfuzed]

A few questions...

 

1.  What sorts of parts will you be making?

2.  Where would you like to be in 5 years?

3.  Will this be your primary source of income?

 

If it were me I would buy a NEW Haas and finance it.  I would get a VF2 with a side mount tool changer and some of the key options and my budget would be ~$65k or so.  I'm not sure what these go for these days but that should do the trick and the factory has very good financing terms.  If you honestly think you can find the work and pull it off you should do it right and get a machine you can grow into over the next few years and NOT a machine you will grow out of in a year.  You also want a machine that will allow you to be competitive at a reasonable shop rate and not have to kill yourself at $25/hr because the machine is so damn slow it takes all night to make a bracket.  Here are the keys to success IMHO.  Work your @ss off, no down time...  Work making parts, then when that is done work on learning every detail of the machine, set up tool libraries, work on your post, create Mastercam templates, make generic fixtures (sub plates, etc...).  INVEST in your business with sweat equity.  You will never have worked as hard as you will when you start your own shop, if you want to be successful.  Prepare to work 60+ hours per week making every part that comes your way to develop a solid customer base.

 

The reward will come in a few years when you have a solid customer base, a paid-for machine, and a six figure+ net income.  If this will not be your primary source of income (aka, side job) then get the cheap machine as it will do great for that and taking a bigger risk wouldn't be justified.  

 

One thing I should add is that this is just my opinion.  I have taken this approach and it has worked for me but that doesn't mean it is right, or the only way by any means.  There is a lot to be said buying with cash and zero debt but I don't have that much patience :-)

I'm with you a 100%!  I've always felt money up front is money ahead!  But unfortunately I'm finding out the implementation of that is a little more difficult.. lol.  Though I've got good credit, and could probably get a damn good machine through Haas.

 

1.  Starting off the work I have a connection too is simple small aluminum parts, in 100 to 500 piece runs.  Not guarantied yet, but possible if I can get in a position to give some accurate qoutes, and actually be ready to take on the work.

 

2. In 5 years, I hope to be making a decent living, still working by myself, but if it's that good, will probably be considering employees.

 

3. And yep, as soon as my Un employment runs out...  Decided it's now or never.  Haven't even been looking for work elsewhere since my Self Employment Assistance was approved.

[kunfuzed]

Hi Chris

what is the current feel for mfg in your area of southern Oregon these days ? After the spotted owl fiasco killed everything  a few years ago  in the timber ind,   Things have looked pretty bleak since then. I am curious what or how you see things in the area since you have to live in it at this point in time. I have been to Ericson Air  and they seemed to be the only large mfg in the area that i found at the time. If you have any thought or gripes feel free to im me if you would like to not air the laundry list of PITA items.

Thanks  for your time and

Good Luck on your new venture

CadCam

Honeslty I've only worked in the post spotted owl world down here since I got my first job at the age of 16 in 1998.   I've always had a job, hasn't always been the best paying, but always found work.  Erickson is probably the largest manufacturer in the area, but not the largest machine shop.  Gun work is big down here (though I see that as a potential bursting bubble)  along with some bio medical, meteorology equipment, and some shops bring in aerospace as well.  I believe a lot has to do with how the shop is run.  Seems to be fifty fifty.  Half the shops around here are slow, but others have more work that they can handle, and luckily I'm acquainted with the later.

[kunfuzed]

Really enjoying the tips guys!  Much thanks!

[dforsythe]

My thoughts:

 

 

I started a shop about 10 years ago.  ( in my late 20’s )  bought a brand new mill and a used CMM right out of the gate.  Kind of like you I had plenty of contacts in other shops and had all the work I could handle.  Things were going very well for the first year.  I probably worked 60 hours a week and enjoyed every minute of it.  Shortly after it all came to an end.  Looking back now I can pin point exactly what went wrong.  It was the wrong time and place in my life to be a shop owner.  The demanding hours, the responsibility that comes with the overhead and wearing many different hats lead to my relationship dissolving right in front of me without me noticing it.  I was so driven to succeed It was as if I had blinders on and couldn’t see anything but the shop.  One might think this is the reason I sold out to another shop, but it wasn’t.  back to the right time and place thing…. It was who I was at that time and who I was in a relationship with that was the end.

 

Fast forward 10 yeas and I have someone very special in my life and a new born son.  I started another shop last year and just bought another new mill to keep up with a small but growing customer base.  Like Bob said, you are never too small to do thing right.  We Use NX so we also have part templates with everything from 6 toolex vises with every configuration of jaws we stock all the way down to adapter plates for lang vises mounted to our 4th axis  all 4th axis and fixtures use a simple dowel pin and bolt method and everything gets a 1x1 grid for flexibility .  We stock a fairly large tool cabinet that is easy to identify and re-stock  out setup sheets always shown the entire machining assembly for clarity ( doesn’t take more than 10 minutes if you do it correctly) We use inspection templates designed to inspect one feature every tool makes for quality control.  And our cutting tool library is extremely accurate for specific holder / projection and machine we program for resulting in very few edits and maximizing MRR even though we may be making one part.  We use a resident tool library to speed up setup time.  ( I probably wouldn’t but a mill with less than 40 ATC for this reason) We do not run production, instead focus on one off’s and R&D work the bigger shops don’t want to touch.  Again like Bob said take every job you can get and be ready for any job you may encounter.  We have taken a lot of work from other shop lately by being prepared for quick turn around and producing above and beyond quality.

 

Yes you will work harder than you ever have before.  I don’t know if you will reap the reward….Im still waiting to on those!  We invest every penny back into being more productive so I’m still a broke struggling shop owner. But if you believe now is the time, then I believe there is no better time.  Good luck!!!!!!

[Bob W.]

 

It was the wrong time and place in my life to be a shop owner.  The demanding hours, the responsibility that comes with the overhead and wearing many different hats lead to my relationship dissolving right in front of me without me noticing it.

 

Making parts is the easy part.  Lucky for me my shop is next to my house so I am always around, sort of, and my wife is very accommodating with the crazy demands (time and $$$) of running a shop.  Without the close proximity of the shop to my house I would have been out of the business or single years ago.

[dforsythe]

Making parts is the easy part.  Lucky for me my shop is next to my house so I am always around, sort of, and my wife is very accommodating with the crazy demands (time and $$$) of running a shop.  Without the close proximity of the shop to my house I would have been out of the business or single years ago.

 

I started out at my house.  we are on a little bit of land and have a very nice 2000 sf building with dual 16ft roll up doors built on a 3ft thick slab.  perfect for what i wanted to do.  then the planning department changes there stance.  so now im about 1.5 miles away from home.  not the 100 yard walk back to the house...but still about the same amount of time...i dont walk to fast

[CADCAM3D5AXIS]

Yes Bob you do have the Hot Set Up and your commute is short also.   Plus you can always have Hot Meals just a short stroll away.

 

[Newbeeee™]

Yes Bob you do have the Hot Set Up and your commute is short also.   Plus you can always have Hot Meals just a short stroll away.

I live a mile away from work and my wife is frequently my meals on wheels...If I was any further away I'd be single.

As I said earlier, it's a lifestyle choice and pre 6am start and 9pm finish and work through the night when you have to is not uncommon.

And as Bob said, making the bits is the easy part (although they obviously do have their challenges). Quoting/Purchasing Tooling +mtl/Treatments/Invoicing/Quality/Shipping yada yada - many hats, and if you have staff, then that can be a whole new ballgame.

Do it long enough it will change your personality where you will no longer have patience and you'll become a miserable b'stard (so she says ).

I've been doing it for 10 years now (2nd time around). Do I regret it - sometimes. Is it easier working for someone else - possibly if you can stomach being told to do what you know won't work or is ridiculous.

Will you have more time off - no. Will you switch off - never (if any of you guys disagree with this I'd love to know how you do it).

Finance is my stumbling block - I don't spend what I haven't got. Yes that may have held me back in the past but through working hard and spending when there was/is money in the bank, we now have 11 CNC's all bought new within the 10 year period.

Doing it this way has allowed me to sleep easier, as $3k+ finance would be too uncomfortable for me as gone are the days of long contracts, and finance for 3+ years makes me uneasy as what's coming in the door in 6 months time let alone 2 years time?

But the best of luck.

[CADCAM3D5AXIS]

Yes Newbeee it sounds like the Ol School Of Hard Knocks  but everything you say is spot on it never ends  when the day ends it just continues 24/7 until the next fire shows up and then you have a new issue to deal with amongst all the other things on the Must do list/Honey do list .

Here is one for all of us currently in this situation and the ones who have been there and know very well the in's and out,s of doing all of the above and all the hats you have to wear.

:cheers:

[Matthew Hajicek - Singularity]

I've been getting some mini endmills on eBay for pennies on the dollar; 11 carbide endmills with 1/8" shanks for $61 delivered.  Might help save a bit for getting your momentum up.