Is it possible for you [not Mastercam] to just write a quickie program using your editor (CIMCO or whatever you use) and send it to the machine to see if it works? My interest is really awakened by these problems because some day it will happen to me and I will say "I remember hearing about this before..." C

Just wanted to bump this back up the ladder; plus the little flame graphic is cool... ... it sort of describes our attitude toward our Integrex right now... Okumas rock C

Maybe I misunderstand the problem here but I think it would be easy enough to rule out either the CNC or the post processor by hand-writing a one-tool program in the exact block-for-block format that the Fadal programming manual describes and run that in the machine. If it works properly, then the CNC machine would [i think] be ruled out as the problem. If you can get the post to generate the same format, it should work, shouldn't it? Am I oversimplying? I don't know... Another thing: if your initial point and R point are the same; why use G99? Probably unrelated, but G99 can really bite you in the xxxx if you make a quick change to your program and don't notice it... [ 09-04-2002, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: chris m ]

Gentlemen How can stopped spindles be less accurate than turning spindles? When drilling, milling, reaming, off-center boring, etc, the spindles are stopped and locked; are these operations all inaccurate? Please explain. If C-axis positioning is .001 degree accurate; how bad can the position really be? I appreciate all of the suggestions of various methods to evaluate the machine condition; Mazak has tried many of these things and they are saying that the machine is physically fine [although some of the cutting heads that I've seen look like the they've been bumped] but they still can't make it work. Something about the C-axis gain... As far as handoffs to stationary spindles, the run time of the part is about 35 minutes and the first op on the second side is a rough milling op, so: 1) I'm not really worried about the "extra" 10 seconds to stop the spindle 2) I would hope spindle synch would be easier and faster at rest than trying to match RPM on different sized chucks with different workholding 3) the right spindle would have to stop after the handoff if it wasn't stopped first, so what would I gain? If it was a cutoff/pickoff as from a bar-feed operation I would agree that a synch on-the-fly would be quicker but in this case I don't agree Keep the good feedback coming guys [ 09-04-2002, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: chris m ]

James & Andrew We were discussing the possibility of part slippage this morning here and I am realtively sure that it is not occurring because: 1) the features that are off seem to be relatively consistent and it is difficult to envision the same amount of slippage each time 2) features machined in succession with little stock removal are not right 3) the chuck is clamping on a finished surface for the second side and there is no evidence that the part moved If we ever get personally involved with debugging this thing there are a bunch of things we'll try... C

Andrew Thanks for your emails; we will continue to correspond. I agree that it is very unlikely that the machine is !@#@%ing it up; that is typically the last place that I look when I have problems. Many of my operators [and one of our former programmers] immediately say "the machine is screwed up" but that is rarely the case. The Mazak guys will be back in here again today to discuss what is going on and what they intend to do. I'm sure they'll tell us that we're the "only ones who ever had this problem..." Don't you love it? Edited after seeing James' last that came in while I was typing: James, the machine was indeed built in Japan but has been set up and running in this country for about 1 year now; 1st at the Mazak tech ctr in Connecticut and now here. The apps/service guys have not mentioned anything about rigging issues and the machine looks mint. They even had Mitsubishi in here looking at it and loaded some new software in the machine last week; still no dice. C [ 09-03-2002, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: chris m ]

Peter, Mazak isn't going anywhere until they make a good part [15 good parts in a row with no defects, actually] but this doesn't help me much with an impending production deadline and no machine to make parts. As far as the spindle home issue is concerned; while I haven't actually paged through their program I would hope that their apps guys know enough to do this. It sounds to me like their problem is that the C axis doesn't repeat, but no amount of programming is going to fix that! Thanks for the input; keep it coming! C

Gentlemen, I know that several of you have Integrexes out there and I would like to pick your brains, if you would be so kind. We purchased a 300SY with a 640MT Fusion control last year with the machine acceptance contingent on an in-plant runoff of the part that we [more or less] bought the machine to make. The machine is now here in my facility, and has been for several months now, but they can't make it work. There seems to be a problem with the accuracy of spindle sychronization during the handoff that they can't solve. The job is a casting, not a bar job, so the machine hands off with both spindles stopped. There are a couple of hole patterns that are critical to each other that are done from opposite sides and must be held to .008" true position [not a particularly tough thing, you wouldn't think] but the machine won't hold it. Any ideas why? The Mazak guys say that our "full C-axis contouring" on the second spindle doesn't work the way it does on the first spindle so they don't have the same level of control on the second side; does this make sense? They also say that the fact that we specified ISO programming ONLY for the runoff part [no Mazatrol] is hamstringing their efforts. I will say up front that we have no knowledge whatsoever of Mazak machine tools, their controls, or their software; but this doesn't make any sense to us at all. Are we getting a snow job? Is the machine itself the problem? It seems to us that it is; but many of you know much more about these machines. My apologies for the novel-length post; but we are extremely concerned and figured that this might be a good place to seek input. Thanks C

Here goes Kevin, showing off his cool toys with those pictures again... Hey; can your shop really be that clean? If so; where do I send my resume...? C

There was a pretty extensive discussion about this a few weeks back that ended up with someone (MfgEng, I think) divulging a resource that seemed pretty good. Can you guys remember this...? For my $.02, I use the Sandvik CoroKey [the Sandvik rep should give you as many of these as he can carry for free] often for turning and inserted milling applications. I generally use OSG's big book for HSS and HSCO milling applications and the manufacturer's books for drilling, reaming, and solid carbide milling applications. My personal recommendation is to start out conservative and play with it in the machine if you need to pick up the pace; 5 minutes machining time saved isn't worth a smoked $60 endmill! C [ 09-03-2002, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: chris m ]

Kathy, that is a great one I was wondering if you were going to let these guys get away with their chauvinistic (sp?) statements [with which I wholeheartedly agree, of course]

quote: Gary, are you absolutely sure your control won't accept G95? Surprising. Believe it. I have a couple [old] machines that won't accept G95. I have a feeling that it may be an option we didn't buy at the time (we didn't even buy man-readables if you can believe it) but they don't take it. This, of course, drives me nuts as I like to program this way; it's always nice to look at the block data in the control while its running and have a good idea of what the machine is doing without breaking out the calculator. Now, if I could only program surface footage instead of RPM... [ 08-30-2002, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: chris m ]

IPR on a milling machine can be nice [especially when proving out a program] if you are not an octopus; if you are fairly confident about your programmed tooth load you don't need to balance your elbow on the feed hold while turning both the feed override and the spindle override to maintain you IPT. I have seen more than one endmill get blown up when the setup guy chops the RPM way down to kill some vibration and the machine keeps feeding away at 2 or 3 times the intended tooth load. It can be a real bitch to get all that carbide out of your part Do you big-time mill guys [which I am definitely NOT as 75% of our work is turning] program drills, taps, and reamers in IPM? Why go through the aggravation of converting your drill feeds since I'm sure most people "think" in IPR for drills? Hugh, you have to give up on this metric system thing, it ain't gonna happen [ 08-29-2002, 07:21 AM: Message edited by: chris m ]

Ouch!!!! That's probably enough to twist the feedrate override right off of the machine! C

If you get your post changed, don't forget to make sure it posts a G95 as .032 IPM is VERY slow Not that I've done that...

Sir, As far as post processors go, there was a thread a couple of months ago in this forum called "Integrex posts" or something like that [started by me, actually] that generated a pretty good response. Unfortunately I am not slick enough with this web stuff to create a link to it, but I'm sure one of the other, brighter, guys can do it. We're still having problems getting our machine to pass our acceptance criteria so I don't have any other help to offer at the moment; sorry C

Ah ha! I see that Tony has eclipsed the 200 post mark. Way to go Otto; I mean Tony... Just so this isn't completely useless as a post; about $55/hour for machine time has been the thumb rule in this area for awhile C

My hack method to eliminate foaming is to dump about a quart of hydraulic oil into the coolant; usually cuts that foam right down. Does anybody else do this or am I just a nut?

Jack The cast iron situation for us is a bitch. My iron issue is that I primarily turn heat-treated ductile iron castings with ceramics using around 1000 SFM which generates very fine chips and considerable heat. The insert guys all want us to turn it dry but the tolerances I must hold (+/-.0002" on a diameter) make the amount of heat put into the part impossible to deal with, the parts change size too much and are very uncomfortable to handle when they come out of the machine (OUCH). The chips tend to form a very concrete-like sludge in the sump of the machine, which of course encourages bacteria growth and general scumminess (is that a word?) leading to the low-tide odor after a couple of months. We do rough mill iron dry because coolant tends to thermal-crack the inserts and cause (very) premature failure. But we can only do this if the parts are going to another machine for finishing or if the sizes are pretty wide open. C

I have to jump in here, too; I have had the same question more than once. Any lathe gurus out there please save us C

Hi I'm pretty anti-union (just had a pretty heated discussion at coffee yesterday with a rabid pro-union guy here, as a matter of fact) though perhaps not as much so as Glenn. I worked in a union environment in the construction & trucking industries earlier in life and didn't care for it much, but I've never worked in a union machine shop. I think it greatly depends on the union, the contract, and the union-management relationship at your particular company. Hope it works out well for you! C [ 08-22-2002, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: chris m ]

I would think that one of the resellers here in the US could probably ship the CD across the pond; could they not? Very short $ although I don't understand much of it yet

South Bay of what? Might be a knucklehead question, but I'm sure there are many "South Bay" areas (we have one). If the guys out here know where you are they may be able to suggest who to talk to in your area, as I'm sure "contact your reseller" can't be far behind...

quote: It looks like it was Hi-JACK-ed... That one should go in the greatest hits... Wish I'd thought of that

OK with me, but I've gotta give credit where credit is due: Hardway was the originator of Sizzler in this thread. I haven't been around long enough to understand all of these sausage references but it sure is interesting. Unusual, but interesting... [ 08-20-2002, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: chris m ]