For those of you who are wondering what kind of scoring system I used to evaluate the different packages, here are a few of the most significant. First let me remind all that each vender was given time to present all of their features to me and then we programmed my sample part, so I am clearly comparing apples to apples. Processing time on 3D high speed toolpaths File conversion from ProE Ability to process in the background Ease of use ( learning curve ) Basic Cad features Training Cost Computer requirements 2D capability The largest weight was given to processing time and this is where Powermill was unbelievable. All of the other Cam packages took anywhere from 30 to 50 minutes in total to calculate all the roughing and finishing toolpaths based on strict parameters that I used on the actual mold. Powermill, however took only 12 minutes. Although Powermill does not have the ability to process in the background ( same as Mastercam ) it becomes a non-issue because it processes so quickly. Cam-tool was easily the most costly system tested and would most likely require a bad-xxxx computer to get the most out of it. The learning curve was also fairly steep. In the end, it was very close between Powermill and Cam-tool, but based on overall speed and " overall cost between the two systems, Powermill came out on top.

Well, after nearly two months of testing different cam systems, I have finally come up with a final tally of my results. I compared 6 cam packages and as stated earlier, most of them had there good and bad points. I will rate them all on a 1 to 10 score with 10 being the best. Powermill 10 Cam-Tool 9.5 Hypermill 8.0 Work NC 7.5 Mastercam 7.0 ProManufacturing 5.0 Powermill was easily the best system of all. It's toolpath generation time was incredible, which is my number one beef with Mastercam. File conversion was seamless, user interface was reasonable to comprehend, no special computer or hardware required, price is reasonable, training close by. Powermill has so many useful features, it really makes Mastercam look like a joke. This is a real dissapointment for myself as I had hoped that Mastercam would finally release a version that works properly. Mastercam shows potential for the future but are clearly way behind in development. In conclusion, I will be recommending Powermill to be purchased by our company and slowly make the transition over. Thank-you Mastercam for 15 good years.

This is just one more problem with X. The filter has nothing to do with it. I also get this same problem when posting. I would also suggest it now takes about twice as long to post a file with exactly the same parameters and posts. Eric, you are not alone.

These mcodes control the accuracy and also the speed at which your part will be cut. M250 is the standard mode and its tolerance is approx .0001 M251 is the high performance mode which has a wider tolerance approx .0008 and is used primarily for roughing operations and will run according to Makino approx 30% faster than M250. M252 is the highest accuracy and its tolerance is right around .00007, or just under a tenth and it will run about 30% slower than M250. When I say slower, I mean the control pays more attention to the details so it controls the accel and decel more accurately which obviously affect machine run time. M253 is a custom mode that Makino can write for you but is not highly recommended.

Just thought some of you would be interested in an update on my progress of evaluating "higher end cam packages". Since my last entry, I have evaluated Camtool, ProManufacturing and Hypermill. Let's start with Camtool. It does not support ProE files anymore. They stopped support after Wildwire 2 and have discontinued their converter and are currently working on a Step converter that will be released at end of May. So we had to use Iges as the file type which for me was a cause for concern. The software has a lot of nice features and performed as per my expectations. Processing time was quite good but the thing that all of these systems that I am evaluating have that Mastercam does not is that they generate their toolpaths in the background while still giving you 100% access to the interface to continue programming the next operation, etc. Most of these system can operate in a 64 bit operating system and are multi-threaded. The Camtool toolpaths were very good but still not quite what I wanted to see. I went one step further and cut a test piece. First, I programmed the part in Mastercam with the absolute best strategies, small steps, small tolerance, etc, and cut the finished part. In total it took 1hour 50 minutes to rough and finish. I then worked with the Camtool rep and we programmed their software and used very similar strategies with exactly the same tools, feeds, speeds, etc. so we could compare apples to apples. I cut their part and it took exactly one hour longer on the machine. With the naked eye, it is somewhat difficult to see any major differences in part quality. However, when a 40X loupe is used, there is no comparison. The Camtool part is far superior. The tool strike marks are absolutely consistent in the along direction and well as the across direction. Blending is perfect. The Mastercam part has a great deal of grooves or striations on the surface. Keep in mind that we are probably talking about .0001 or less. I would say that 99% of the cases, the Mastercam part would be just fine. So, I guess I have to decide which is more important to me, surface finish or machine run time. Next on my list was ProManufacturing from ProE ( PTC ). Obviously, opening a ProE file is a no-brainer. After a brief walk through of the software, I was somewhat impressed with a couple of the toolpaths. It wasn't long after that, the train quickly derailed. It was very difficult and time consuming to do some simple tasks that we would normally perform on a file before we start programming toolpaths. For example, covering ejector pin holes or capping openings where you do not want to cut. Soon thereafter, the software kept crashing and we never got a single toolpath out. The reps left with my test part file and their tail between their legs and said they would work on it and get back to me. Its been nearly 3 weeks and nothing but silence. Next was Hypermill. After a complete overview of their software, it became apparent that this software is quite good. It comes at a premium price because it "should" be used inside a Cad package which adds to the cost. It can be used as a stand alone product, but it is preferred if it is used inside any of the conventional Cad systems available. There is no doubt that their 5-axis functionality is where few can compete. It opened the ProE file with no problems and we started programming the test part. Again, we tried to duplicate the same or similar cutting conditions that I created in Mastercam. I was a little disappointed with the processing time and also some of the lead-in, lead-outs and transitions. Not a make or break issue but it could be improved. Toolpaths were good however one toolpath failed and the rep took it with him to see if he could figure out why. This was only today so I expect I will hear from him soon. Perhaps we will also cut the test part to compare surface finish and run time. We'll see. Although my testing is not complete and I don't want to jump to any conclusions, there are a couple of things that are emerging. None of the systems stand out as a clear winner or one that I could justify a major purchase. They all have their strengths and weaknesses as some of the other posts suggest. I would like to see Mastercam take advantage of some of the new computing technologies that are available to satisfy demanding customers like myself. It would probably not be very cost effective for them as the "average" user of Mastercam does not have the same demands as our company. If a perfect part is your highest criteria, Camtool is the one as it does not use a triangulated mesh to calculate from like all of the other systems. Very impressive and costly. Perhaps it would also require a "bad-xxxx" computer to really make it perform. Hopefully I will find the time to look at Powermill and also follow up with the others to address some of my observations and finally draw some conclusions. This process has been extremely time consuming and mentally draining. It sure would be nice to have some knowledge to see what direction Mastercam is going or what is a priority to them.

The Haimer shrink holders are a premium holder and come at a premium price. For us, there are only 2 suppliers in the world for HSK63F. We have been happy with them and they will last forever as long as they are used properly. Overheating even once will render them useless. Keep in mind that they are only recommended for finishing applications. I find that we do get a small amount of tool vibration on the 1/8 and 3/16 holders. They are very slender and hollow so there is not a huge amount of strength there. We also bought the water-cooled Haimer shrinker but it does not have depth rods for setting a given overhang so we just mark the endmill with a black Sharpie to the disired length and then shrink it in to the top of the holder. This works fine 90% of the time. We have 30,000 rpm spindles so we check balance on our balancing machine occasionally but the shrink holders rarely change. Once they are hard balanced to spec. it takes a really bad endmill to throw them off. We can shrink a tool and cool it in under a minute. The key to a good shrink system is run-out. From what I have researched and from our own cutting I have found that for every .0001 of run-out you have, you lose 20% tool-life. Believe it. This is where is pays to spend the money on quality. If I did not have the Haimer products, I would go with OSG.

We have been using the Haimer / Command shrink system for about 3 years now. HSK63F for our Makino's. What would you like to know?

I think Midwest missed the point our question. To back up the chain you must first expand the chaning dialog box by clicking the arrow in the top left of the box. You can then select the button that will back up your chain to the next branch point.

To the best of my knowledge, once you pass the number 6, the offsets change to G54.1 P1, G54.1 P2, G54.1 P3, etc. We use Makino's with a Fanuc control and this is how it works. Our extended offsets go up to P50.

Funny thing. I had the exact same thing happen to me today as well. Almost identical result. The original part was machined in X2 SP1 and looked great. I opened the file in X2 MR1 today to make another part and I had the same problem. Not only that, I had two small surfaces missing. I tried importing the original ProE file in and those same surfaces were missing as well. Very strange, because the original was perfect.

I have attributed the slowdown to the more complex high speed toolpaths. By nature, they are doing a lot more calculations than a standard toolpath. With all of the lead ins, filleting and transitions, it just takes longer to generate, but you definetly get a better toolpath. For our shop that is go, go, go, it is killing us. I would say we have experienced about a 20% decrease in productivity. Hopefully this will be addressed in the near future.

Josh, Importing from ProE is poor at best. Forget what CNC Apps guy says. He must be refering to some past generation. As a company, we import probably 50 files a day so I would say I am somewhat of an expert on this matter. With the previous version of ProE ( Wildfire 2 ) you were able to convert the files very well with Mastercam version 9. When ProE progressed to Wildfire 3, that's when the problems started. Version 9 cannot open Wildfire 3 so we had to wait until Mastercam X came along and at least we could open the files but they were poor. CNC Software have made improvements to the converter with the latest release ( MR1 ) but it is still not great. My opinion is this is a ProE problem, not a Mastercam issue. When I say the importing is poor, I mean that the wireframe entity count is ridiculous for one. What we do is import the solid from ProE and delete all wireframe and then create a new wireframe from the solid. This usually drops the entity count in half. The funny thing is there are no duplicate entities. We also create surfaces from the solid and delete the solid as this makes it easier to program a portion of the model with selected surfaces rather than Mastercam looking at the entire solid. Speeds up processing time. Another problem is when you import the solid, it also imports some surfaces. We have never figured out why this happens so we have to delete them too. It must have something to do with the "history tree" within ProE. We have tried experimenting with STEP, IGES and Parasolid files and have not found a clear alternative. Each one has there own drawbacks. Again, I think it's ProE problem. I have spoken to other cam vendors and they tell me that they cannot import a proper file from ProE either. At least two vendors have told me they use Iges with no issues in their systems. I don't mean to slam you CNC Apps guy but your feedback is outdated. [ 04-03-2007, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Prosin Molds ]

Very interesting. We did some testing today on one of our computers to see how it processed a file in different formats. We have had some processing time issues and I wanted to see if the file format had anything to do with it. I chose a cavity insert and we programmed it from a native ProE file using solids, then ProE using surfaces, then Iges using surfaces, then step using solids. Using exactly the same toolpaths and parameters, we found all of the processing times were similar. The ProE file using solids was the fastest but really only on one toolpath. I think it was the re-machine toolpath. We programmed high speed area clearance, Rest roughing, waterline, leftover, and shallow. All toolpaths took about 8 minutes to process in each file format. I know this does not address your question, however, but any feedback on what other users prefer or use would be appreciated. I too would like to know what would be an ideal computer to run Mastercam. Is a dual or quad core that much better, etc.

Mastercam NewsFlash February 2007 Maintenance Release Delivers Enhanced Toolpath Control Released in March, Mastercam X2 MR1 is available to all Maintenance customers and all new Mastercam customers. This release introduces new capabilities including improved toolpaths for high speed machining, multiaxis enhancements, and more. Here is a sneak peek of what the MR1 release delivers: I hope all of this makes you edgey types happy. Maybe CNC Solutions like their Canadian customers better. I can understand that. LOL As you can see, it is not a Beta version or anything like that. Good luck with your reseller. Out.

Cuda 84: You said it best. I did not receive it early. I received an email stating it was available for maintenance customers, I asked for it and I received it. Take it easy guys. I've paid my dues.

No I mean X2 MR1. My Masteracm dealer installed it for me today. It has a new trochoidal cutting feature in core roughing high speed toolpath. The list of things they repaired when you read the "what's new" file is staggering. I have only tried a few things with MR1 but so far so good.

I used the new X2 MR1 today for the first time. They have fixed a ton of things this time around. Some of my issues have been addressed but are still not perfect. A lot of new functionality in the high speed stuff. Before you ask I got it from my MC reseller.

quote: ------------------------------------------------- The check holder chook will tell you how long your tool needs to stick out to cut the part. Or you can have it break up a toolpath into multiple toolpaths using different length tools. ------------------------------------------------- I had my Mastercam reseller in here today and they install X2 MR1 to see if it would resolve some of my issues. They showed me this c-hook that I was unaware of and I will try this function out. Thanks for the response Roger.

We use the same magnets but they are sold under a different brand name. They look identical and have a similar price. They work great but on small parts you need to block them up to prevent the part from moving. The chips "stick" to the magnet so recutting the chips is a bit of a problem at times.

Today I had the rep in for WorkNC and we intalled the software and he gave me a walk through. Once that was done we tried to reprogram a job that I had just finished cutting in Mastercam. First we tried to import the model from ProE and it failed. Lots of missing surfaces. I went back to engineering and had them export an iges file and that seemed to work fine. We set up the toolpaths to the same parameters that I had programmed in MC and timed the processing time for the entire job. The time was almost identical to MC. Much to my surprise. It seems like WorkNC has almost identical toolpaths and abilities to MC. There was a neat feature which I wish MC had. It has the ability to tell you how much extention you need to stick out of the toolholder in order to cut the job with no collisions. I also liked a couple of other things but nothing that I could justify the premium price tag. I think on a large automotive die with 10000 surfaces is where it might beat MC. I will continue to test with it before I jump to conclusions. Daniel: posting is not an issue for us. Our MC reseller customised a fanuc post for us. Our issue is more of an overall processing issue. Again, only about 1% of our work is 2D. Jeff Kemper: My hardwate is Pentium D dual core, 3 Ghtz, 2G ram, 256 video card ( can't remember brand) running XP Sharles: Thanks for the tip. I usually test the surfaces or solid first in analize and then proceed from there. I have found that if a surface is " irregular " not necessarily bad that will cause MC to slow down considerably. CNC Apps Guy: I disagree with you on the import of ProE files in X2MR1. We use ProE Wildfire 3 and I see no difference. We use to import Wildfire 2 into MC version 9 no problem. I think it is just a case where the translator has not been updated to the current version of ProE. Gcode, Joels, Yogesh and others: The high speed toolpaths now found in X2 and Solidworks are directly taken from NC Graphics ( Depocam ) They are 90% the same and even have the same descriptions and terminology. I recently used Depocam while on a siesta last summer from my current job. MC does a great job with these but I would say Depocam is a little more refined. Depocam also has no 2D or cad ability. I suppose CNC Software is under a license agreement or bought the toolpaths or something. I have Camtool coming on Thursday so it will be interesting to see what they offer. Hypermill and Powermill will follow and possibly Visi. [ 03-20-2007, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Prosin Molds ]

We do not use Mastercam for modelling as our engineers use ProE. As some of you have stated in other posts importing from ProE in X2 is a mess. I'm sure that will be addressed in next maintenance release. All I want is a system that is somewhat automated to get things done faster. 99% of our work is 3D with lots of detail. Due to the amazing speed of the Makino's, there is no way programmers can keep up to the machines. We have five seats of Mastercam and 4 Makino's. Hypermill is another system I will take a look at. I have heard of Visi but have not investigated. Some of these other systems are 3 times the price of Mastercam and I guess that is why I referred to them as higher end. You must be getting something for all that extra coin? I see no one has replied about Cam tool. I have personaly seen toolpaths and parts cut by this software and I must say it produces the best surface finishes I have ever seen. Absolutely blemish free with no need to polish. I am going to test this one for speed but it is way up there in price. Thanks for all the feedback so far.

Hey all, first time trying this forum. I have used Mastercam since version 3 and have had great success and we are currently using X2. As much as I love all the new high speed toolpaths and functionality, I find we are just not able to prepare programs fast enough for our Makino's. Processing time is brutal and we are looking for the best surface finishes so naturally our tolerances for the toolpaths are set very small. I am wondering if a more expensive package is the way to go to speed thing up. I am going to take a look at Work NC and Tool Cam. Can anyone offer an opinion of either as an addition to Mastercam?