O/T Clinton memoir's book

[KMaynard]

It's funny because I think as young politicians there are a lot of people who start out innocently with great intent to make a change for the better. Not all of these people who sign up are with the best intent but what happens is that the system as a whole has become so corrupted it's hard not to get caught up in it in order to play the game effectively.

 

What bothers me about certain politicians is when they have millions of dollars and pretend to know or even be on the side of the working middle class stiff. Both Bush and Kerry are these types of people..

 

The thing that bothers me about Kerry is simple.. He has always made a habit of flip flopping on issues to gain the popular poll. This tells me he is a very indecisive person and someone who to be honest I would not have wanted in office during the 9-11 attacks. I don't think he is a bad person but I don't think he has great leadership qualities....

 

I'm tired of the press and the democrates tilting things by complaining about the Iraq war and how it was wrong. Did anyone notice the report a few weeks ago about Iraqi "Banned" missle engines turning up in Jordan? Probably not ..it wasn't widely reported but they made a point to let you know yesterday that Saddam may be have been mistreated by his captors.....

 

Everytime you see Al-Queida Behead an american or even an ally, instead of looking at that feeling sick like we shouldn't be there and proving to these people that we don't have the stomach for the bloodshed .. Show em it gets this country even madder and more determined ...Jesus what happened to the bond America had shortly after 9-11 .. how quickly we forget

[A-ron1286490684]

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Did anyone notice the report a few weeks ago about Iraqi "Banned" missle engines turning up in Jordan? Probably not ..it wasn't widely reported but they made a point to let you know yesterday that Saddam may be have been mistreated by his captors.....

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But there really is no media bias.

 

2 months of Abu grab-xxxx and what, 1 day of coverage on the shell that exploded that contained VX gas components. But there really is no media bias.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...Saddam may be have been mistreated by his captors...

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... and I'm supposed to weep for this man that wanted to exterminate some of his own people??? Trust me, there is NOTHING we could do to this SOB that woudl even begin to hold a candle to the ways he terrorized his own people. Even if they beat his @$$ Rodney King style every day for the rest of his life it still would not be brutal enough punishment.

 

quote:

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...Iraqi "Banned" missle engines turning up in Jordan?...

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That's news to me. I don't get Fox News which is probably the only TV news bold enough to tell the truth about matters such as this.

 

[ 06-24-2004, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: James Meyette ]

[gcode]

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they made a point to let you know yesterday that Saddam may be have been mistreated by his captors.....

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He thinks he's mistreated now, just wait till the Iraqi's get a hold of his sorry a$$

[Scott Bond]

quote:

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"nobody died when I lied"

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He was doing an intern on our company time

and on our company property more than once.

I beleave if he would have not partied so

much in that office,,,he may have just stumbled

accross something that may have helped US.

US being the people who trust that our main

guy is at least doing the job the best he can.

I beleave if he would have not had to lie and then deffend those lies so much ,that he may have just stumbled accross something that may have helped US.

If Clinton's sex time in the oval office was spent on company bizz instead maybe Enron,and so on, would be different .

 

If JFK could only see what has become of his clan.

[KMaynard]

I think the point wasn't the act as much as the fact that he lied about it. I can respect someone for making a mistake and admitting they messed up, we are human and screw up everyday(some a bit more than others :lol ).. It's the cover-up and the lies that get to me.. if he was willing to lie about that what major issue would he lie about in his job ..

[Mark Lovelace]

if he was willing to lie about that what major issue would he lie about in his job..

 

Jeepers! Such a person might lie about why we are going to war against Iraq, or about a connection to 9/11, or about an active nuclear program, or about arial drones that can reach the US, or about WMD, or about mobile weapons labs, or about helping the Bin Laden and Saud families get out of the US immediately after 9/11, or about terrorism having increased dramatically under Bush's watch, or about blowing the cover of a CIA agent, or about the expected cost of the war, or about how difficult it would be, or about having a 'coalition of the willing' that is actually mostly mercenaries, or about having been elected President, or about scrubbing voter rolls in Florida, or about being a 'moderate' on abortion, or about letting Enron and Exxon dictate US energy policy, or about who will benefit from his tax breaks, or about being 'fiscally responsible' while creating the largest national deficit in the history of the world, or about having met the official definition of "AWOL", or about removing Iraq from the list of 'terrorist nations' so that we could sell them weapons, or about selling arms to Iran in exchange for hostages, or about funnelling the profits from such sales to terrorists in Central America, or about bugging the Democratic Headquarters, or about engineering the Watergate break-in, or...

 

Yeah, I know some of these things go back further than George II, but his cabinet - Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, etc, - were central to all of the above. They are a pack of liars, with Bush as the Chief Weasel.

 

I can understand why conservatives hate Clinton, but I can't understand how you cannot hate Bush even more so.

[Scott Bond]

Mark ,

Wow

Have you been getten your info from the TV again?

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

You don't EEEEEEEEEEEEEEVEN want to know the atrocities dug up on Clinton. Shoot, at least if you're friends with GW, you'll live. Poor Vince Foster... never had a chance to live a full life once he got hooked up with the Clintons, and he's not even the only one either. The list is long and distiunguished for the people he's known that have died under "less than optimum" conditions... Boy Mark, you sure have your rhetoric down. I'll bet you typed that in one breath

 

Funny, I distinctly remember hearing Rummie speaking of the cost of the war, I believe $2 Billion a month was the figure. Is that an underestimation?

[Mark Lovelace]

Dude, it was all on Entertainment Tonight.

 

Actually, Scott, I do read a little now and then. Most recently I read Rise of the Vulcans; The History of Bush's War Cabinet, by James Mann. It's a very interesting book about Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Powell, Rice, and Armitage. It doesn't take sides (it's neither a glowing testimony to their brilliance, nor a condemnation of their malevolence), but instead simply recounts where they came from, the experiences which shaped their philosophies, and how they got to be where they are today. Some of the facts above are taken from that book, some from other news sources, and some are taken directly from documents, writings, or historical footage.

 

James, on the other hand, apparently gets his 'facts' from that paragon of unbiased reporting Fox News. That, and web-based conspiracy theorists. There's accuracy for ya!

[Scott Bond]

Cool Mark

I beleave what I beleave, I don't debate it.

I am aware that some don't care for Bush, but that's their opinoin.

I for one think he stands up for us, and I like it. The other guy would be fun at a party, but I wouldn't hire him where I work.

 

Buy War Bonds

[mold100]

+1 Scott

[A-ron1286490684]

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James, on the other hand, apparently gets his 'facts' from that paragon of unbiased reporting Fox News. That, and web-based conspiracy theorists. There's accuracy for ya!

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You guys have all other news media at your disposal yet one Libertatian website, (Drudge), and one CENTRIST news channel, (Fox), constitutes some sort of balance when it comes to so called fair journalism... -Ok then.

[Dan_AKA_ROY]

Go blow it out your azz, Mark!

 

Some saliant points, but you buy into all those claims? I got some beautiful land in Florida to sell you. Only one thing, its under water.

 

Iraq not that important to the muslim extremists? Then why the escalated violence leading up to June 30th? Why? Because they're desperately fighting against Iraq's independence. damn right its important to those xxxx...and GWB knows it!!!

 

Have you read Midnight Oil's post? Here's a small part of it:

 

>The war in Iraq also met a very strategic necessity in that no one knew

>how much collaboration existed between Saddam Hussein and the master

>planners of the Third Jihad or Hussein's willingness to hand off WMDs to

>terrorist groups including the PLO in Israel. What was known were

>serious indications of on-going collaboration as Saddam funneled money

>to families of suicide bombers attacking the Israelis and others in

Kuwait.

>

>What the U.S. needed to establish was a significant base of operations

>smack dab in the middle of the Islamic world, in a location which

>effectively cut it in half. Iraq was the ideal target for this and a

>host of other strategic reasons.

>

>Leadership of various anti-American groups both here and abroad

>understood the vital nature of the Bush initiative and thus launched

>their demonstrations, world-wide, to "Stop The War". Failing this, they

>also laid plans to build a political campaign inside the country, with

>the War in Iraq as a plebiscite, using a little known politician as the

>thrust point--Howard Dean. This helps to explain how quickly the Radical

>Left moved into the Dean campaign with both people and money, creating

>what the clueless media called the "Dean Phenomenon".

>

>By building on the left-wing base in the Democrat party and the "Hate

>Bush" crowd, the campaign has already resulted in a consensus among the

>aspirants, minus Joe Lieberman, to withdraw the U.S. from Iraq and turn

>the operation over to the U.N. And, if past is prologue, i.e., Vietnam,

>once the U.S. leaves it will not go back under any circumstances,

>possibly even the destruction of Israel.

[Rekd™]

Scott, I think he just pulls it out of his arse, and if it sounds good, he posts it... (sound familiar? )

[Mark Lovelace]

Roy,

 

Believe it or not, I actually agree with part of Midnight Oil's post, that invading Iraq was seen as a 'strategic neccessity' due to its location. Bush and his 'Vulcans,' particularly Wolfowitz, had been interested in Iraq for geo-political reasons well before 9/11. These reasons existed even before Saddam Hussein rose to prominence, as is clear from Wolfowitz's own writings and memos dating back to the Ford administration.

 

Iraq is in a geographically key location for establishing control over the Middle East. The fact that Iraq, itself, is rich in oil is just icing on the cake. Oil was definitely a huge factor in going to war, but I disagree with those who believe it was the reason. That is a huge over-simplification of a much more complex subject.

 

But it is just as much of an over-simplification to say that we invaded Iraq as part of a war on terror. Terror provided the opportunity and the justification to do what Bush's cabinet had wanted to do since before they were Bush's cabinet. In the 2000 report Rebuilding America's Defenses, Wolfowitz, Lewis Libby and others wrote "While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."

 

Whether you agree with this statement or not is not the issue. The point is that the desire to secure control of Iraq existed prior to 9/11 and, going further back, prior to Saddam Hussein's rise to power (see Rise of the Vulcans). But simply having the desire wasn't enough. They needed a reason they could sell to the American people. In discussing the difficulties of repositioning US forces, the same 2000 report stated "the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."

 

On 9/11, the Bush administration got what it was looking for. I am not one of those conspiracy theorists who beleives that the adminsitration was involved in 9/11, nor that they welcomed it, but I solidly believe that they took advantage of it. Immediately after 9/11, Rumsfeld sent out a memo saying he wanted the "best info fast. Judge whether good enough (to) hit S.H. at the same time. Not only UBL (Osama Bin Laden)" "Go massive. Sweep it all up. Things related and not." Rumsfeld already knew what he wanted to do, as he had known for years.

 

A massive effort was put in motion to build a case for invading Iraq, using 9/11 as the justification. Information which was known to be bogus or from unreliable sources was dusted off and, if it fit their narrative, the administration used it.

 

America was either told, or allowed to believe, that Iraq had been involved in 9/11, and that it posed an immenent threat to the US. At the time we went to war, a majority of Americans believed that Iraq had been behind 9/11, or even that the hijackers had been Iraqis.

 

No imminent threat has ever been established.

Rumsfeld now says 'Well, the administration never said the threat was imminent..' (though he, himself, did).

 

No link to 9/11 has ever been found. Bush himself now says 'We never said Iraq was involved in 9/11', though they certainly did nothing to discourage that popular myth. Apparently, many here on the Forum still believe this, despite Bush's own admission.

 

The administration had deeply held reasons for wanting to invade Iraq, but they did not trust the American people enough to tell us the truth. Instead they sold us this war on lies. That is a far greater crime than anything Clinton ever did while in the White House.

 

Oh, wait, except for those 47 people he had killed. Forgot about that "fact".

 

Oh, and Rek'd, better get down to WalMart. Sounds like you're out of ammo.

[Rekd™]

Mark, in light of a family member getting shot last nite in Penn., I didn't do you the justice of reading all the drivel you wrote, but I will later.

 

As for Wal-Mart; typical dem assumptions about long-haired white boys from cali buying their ammo at Wal-Mart.

 

Get a clue, man, I buy 5,000 rounds at a time, I don't have time for Wal-Mart!

[Mark Lovelace]

Matt,

 

My sympathies to you and your family. I hope your relative is okay, and recovers quickly.

 

Also, please accept my apologies for unknowingly having chosen a horrible time to make jokes about ammo and killing. It was entirely unintentional but, in light of events, looks extremely callous.

 

I'll look forward to resuming our spirited debate when things calm down on your end.

 

Best wishes,

Mark

[Rekd™]

Thanks Mark, no apologies are necessary though. I may see holes in your policies, but your character is top-notch and, pardon the pun, bullet proof, (unlike my brother,) and I love debating with intellegent well armed people. (Though I'm not sure what you were thinking by bringing a knife to a gun-fight )

 

I'm not sure how he (my brother) is going to turn out, I'll keep you posted. Thanks again.

 

'Rekd

 

[ 06-25-2004, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: Rekd ]

[Rekd™]

Mmm, +1 via double post..

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...and that it posed an immenent threat to the US...

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I remember the speach that Bush gave, and HE did not say that Iraq was an immenent threat, he said that he wanted to "...strike before they were an immenent threat...". I've parsed the transcript at least 10x because I hear those efin' liberals saying he said they were an immenent threat day in and day out, week in and week out. Guess when you repeat a lie often enough it becomes truth. The strategy is working, most people believe Bush said that. Such a shame. such a shame.

 

While I don't personally believe that xxxx Hussein (sic) had direct knowledge/something to do with 9/11, the evidence still points to links between Al Queda and his regime, besides, he gave money to suicide bomber's families, that IMNSHO tells me he fully backed the terrorist agenda. As the saying goes... " You're either with us or against us..." He was against us and had to be brought down. I'll loose all my senses for a sentence pretend that Iraq did not posess WMD's. The fact still remains that his engineers/scientists had the know how to produce these things. What's that saying .... ... "Knowledge is power", yeah that's it... Knowledge is power! That in my estimation is just as dangerous as physically having WMD's because knowledge can be exported without anyone on the outside knowing. Case in point, Pakistan's "Godfather of Nuclear Energy" exported his Nuke knowledge to Iran and now look what we're faced with... efin' nukes in the hands of unstable people, people that want to "kill the infidel". Tell you what, this is kill or be killed, and our President at least has the courage and conviction go go down fighting not like that puss Kerry. He would put his head between his legs and cower. He's such a puss, he only stands for 1 thing and that is he thinks he can be president. Everything else depends on which way the wind blows.

 

I would disagree also that Oil was a huge factor for going to war, was it a factor? Sure. I'm not so naive to believe otherwise. Stability in the oil industry is PARAMOUNT to the industrialized nations of the world continued economic success which is what the terrorists are fighting tooth and nail against... Western Success.

[P_Scott]

OK people. I thought this was a topic on the Clinton memoirs? Frankly, I never liked the guy from the time in his first bid to the Big House and he "talked" with a group of starry-eyed college kids in an MTV hosted "debate". They all thought he was hip because he played the Sax and went on TV on their favorite channel. Very smart move at the time. Of course, when he answered the same question, asked slightly differently, with two totally different, well-thought out, scripted replies, I knew he was nothing more than another joker looking to go "Bigtime".

 

George W. Bush may not be prefect..., uh, purrfect, but he's a helluva more real than "Slick Willy" ever was. Sure, he can't say nuclear (nucular?) but he's been a stable leader in an unstable world. He didn't cower after the attacks but rather showed the rest of the world that he isn't afraid of taking the fight to those who deserve it. Maybe the intentions were not the best. Maybe the results aren't as promising as we'd hoped. He accomplished one thing however. He kept America focused on the goal. To rid the world of Terrorism. All the Democrats have accomplished is turn ourselves against each other and lost sight of that goal. "War is Hell". There is no Heaven without Hell. Would Heaven be worth it if there wasn't a Hell to stay out of?

 

Anyway, I will never read any drivel written by that cowardly snake who had wasted our taxpayer money on his entertainment in the office "we" hired him for. Scott Bond was right. He was supposed to be working for us instead of keepin' his "slick willy" employed. Watch the movie "Primary Colors" with John Travolta. There are so many parallels between the movie and Clinton's ascendancy it's ridiculous. Besides it's a hilarious movie but it's dark humor. Why didn't Michael Moore promote that movie? He didn't make it. It also made way too much sense.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Wag the dog, wag the dog, wag the dog!!!!

 

[Mark Lovelace]

Peter,

 

I thought Primary Colors was excellent. As someone who did vote for Clinton (twice!), I thought the whole thing was summed up perfectly in the suicide note from the Kathy Bates character, which he reads at the end. The note just says "I am so f$#@ing disappointed in you!"

 

Oh, and Travolta did an excellent Clinton. Who'd a' thunk it?

 

Wag the Dog was good, too. I liked how none of the characters ever stopped for even one second to consider the morality of what they were doing.

 

Either of those is far better than sappy crap like Dave or The American President.

[P_Scott]

Mark,

 

I hear ya. Loved "Wag the Dog" as well. Travolta surprised me in "Primary Colors". It's definitely one of his best performances in the past few years. By the end of the film, I didn't even think of him as John Travolta but rather as "Slick Willy".

 

It's unfortunate that it came out after Clinton was already elected. Also unfortunate is they never mentioned anything close to Clinton's granting "Most favored trade nation" to China, thus allowing them to decimate our mold industry. Hmmm. I wonder if Clinton himself says anything about that blunder in his "memoirs". Probably thinks it was brilliant decision on his part. That way Wal-Mart, which is HQ in Arkansas (Clinton's home state) could get all the cheap stuff to sell without having to worry about huge tariffs and sanctions from their leading supplier.