WTH? Since when do Tooling Reps do this?

[Mick]

A local rep for a big name tooling company, offers free programming, in return for carbide business. Wouldn't be so bad, if it wasn't for the fact that some of us are trying to establish a living doing contract programming, and here is someone offering the same service free of charge, and taking some of our customers, directly affecting our workload. Anyone else have their tooling reps offering the same service locally?

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

That's a new one to me. Seems to me that would be counter productive for them. If they are programming, they are not selling. :shrug: Besides is that that much profit in Carbide that they can afford to offer that kind of support??? :shrug: If there's that much profit in it, sounds like people need to do some shopping around and find a better deal.

 

JM2C

 

You been affected man?

[Bruce Caulley]

I have had that offer, but only if we are in a tight situation or need the tooling company to nail cycle time on a project. We have never taken up the offer. It does seem strange that they would offer this as a free service side by side with the tools. They are either making too much money on the carbide, or are paying some noob $15hr to programme your parts.

 

Bruce

[Kannon]

Maybe this is their approach..

sales are down....

Program a occasional crash or outlandish feedrate to bring sales of carbide up!!!!!

 

I would like a .25 flat endmill please....

now here is the program I need you to make.

[DC Gorn]

It is not new. Even back in the mid 90's we had tool rep that would help with the quotes and write code. I think he liked knowing how his tools where being used. In return I would buy the startup tooling thru him. Normally this was only on large on going jobs. Example: Mac 750 hp cyclinder head. Job ran for 4 years I think his time was well paid for

[Jimmy Wakeford from Barefoot CNC]

I work with a tool sales guy that does similar stuff. Once they get into a company selling tools there is a good residual income. One thing you can do as a contract programmer is to talk to him bout makin progs for him.

[Mick]

Thanks for replying everyone.

 

James: Have I been affected? Definitely yes. I would say I have lost three good long term customers, as a result of this.

 

Interestingly, this guy is using Gibbscam which has been supplied by his tooling company, and his tooling company actually fly him up for training on the software. I get the impression that Gibbs are using the situation as a sideline sales tool.

So, Mastercam sales have suffered too as a result. A lot of smaller customers think "great, free programming, and if I buy Gibbs he will help out too".

Jimmy, I know the guy and early in the piece, he spoke to me about working together, then he wnet off and set all this up.

I agree though, while he is programming, he isn't selling, so its counterproductive. One would have thought it would have been better to work with me, rather than against me.

[Gary]

Yeah but if he's rubbing the owners right by going the extra mile to show the customers how his tools will perform and has the knowledge he is going to def increase sales. Strong customer relations with his customers will go alot further than in and out of a ton of shops a day without making any relationships with the customers. I think he is going to be busy and you should only hope he either uses you for help or gets to busy and starts to let guys down. He is def burning the candle at both ends and will have to be very motivated to make it last. just my .02

[Mick]

Gary,

 

I kind of agree with what you say. But, from a sales aspect (and I used to be a tooling salesman), while he is programming, he isn't selling. And if he has to give away programming to get sales, something is wrong. Also, by offering free programming, he's hurting the business of me, and others.

TO put it another way, imagine if the tooling company started offering free machining to your customers down the road, the same customers that you do their overflow work for.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...Interestingly, this guy is using Gibbscam which has been supplied by his tooling company, and his tooling company actually fly him up for training on the software. I get the impression that Gibbs are using the situation as a sideline sales tool.

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Probably a Gibbs ploy. Seriously. Here in many areas of the country, the other CAD/CAM sales people have to practically give their stuff away to sell it. Many of the other CAD/CAM companies are hurting for sales so they are lowering their pricing to the dealer to just keep some cashflow coming in.

 

GibbSCAM...

[Kevangel]

Dog eat Dog out there....

[Paul McGarr]

Dog eat dog is right. That's how we keep things fair. If I had widgets to sell, but they weren't selling because people didn't know how to store them, I would give away widget cases and everybody would buy my widgets...unless, of course, somebody was selling cheaper widgets, or better cases.

 

I've never heard of the free programming thing, but I say "whatever works" as long as it's honest. Personally, I wouldn't dream of letting a tool salesman program for me. I have never dealt with a salesman that knew the tooling they were selling well. All textbook...no real world. Of course this is New England. I hear they're more knowledgeable out west.

 

One more reason I wouldn't go for this is that they sell the carbide that is consumed by the programs. That's kind of like buying an engine for your car that was built by Mobile. Not a good idea.

 

...and Gibbs, c'mon.

 

Paul

[Guest]

quote:

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...and Gibbs, c'mon.

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Small shop is not going to care what it is programmed with as long as it works.

 

But I agree for a shop doing their own in-house programming Gibbs is a joke, 1, maybe 2 steps up from BobCam

[Gary]

Is the guy doing just enough programming to get the tool hes selling running or is he doing the whole job on complicated stuff? I can't believe he's got hours to burn in order to program these jobs. There ain't that much money in tooling especially to shops that don't have a programmer and if they do they are just going to xxxx him off and alot of times he, like me is the one that decides what tools to buy for doing the job. Maybe you should check into selling tooling as part of your side work just to see how far he's willing to go. I'm sure there are tool distributors out there that would love a guy like you promoting his tools while also showing how mastercam can optimise these tools. Plus you will get programming work from it. Man up by me a good programmer could sell tools a hell of a lot easier than a tool rep that knows nothing about how to approach a job with his tools.

[Jimmy Wakeford from Barefoot CNC]

The bad thing is that he is using gibbscam instead of mc. The way it works. Customer gets free cam file from tool rep/contract programmer. Then needs a change. (they always do eventually) they need to open file, so buy cam. The cost of cam compared to tooling costs is very small in most shops so the sale is usually just a call to order.

 

One thing to keep in mind is:

perspective#1

If a tool guy provides nc for customer then contract programmer gets no work

If a contract programmer provides programs for customer then mc dealer gets no sale

 

perspective #2

With tool guy, contract programmer and mc guy working together then everyone can coexist and make money. We do high speed/production seminars that include Mastercam's role, tooling aspects, coating aspects, and at the next one coolant stuff. By working with these guys I end up selling more mc.(I'm represented in more shops). The tool guy and a certain contract programmer have done joint projects also that came from me talking them up. So every one makes more sales/money.

 

My recomendation would be to try to build a relationship with tool guy if you can. Otherwise it will cost you work.

[Jimmy Wakeford from Barefoot CNC]

Oh yea, remember also to minimize your exposure also by doin one deal at a time. Money is money and you dont wanna open yourself up to get hosed.

[JazzBass]

Don't stress Mick, If this guy was a good programmer he wouldn't be selling tools. Besides, I doubt very many shop owners would trust programs from a sales rep. There are a lot of variables that go in to making parts. Maybe a simple block with a hole in it program. What's going to happen when one of his programs crash a machine tool?

[gcode]

Mastercam and the endmill/interst mill folks should get together and start builing tool libraies for X.

These libraries should contain manufactures stock numbers and suggested feeds and speeds.

This is already done with Kennametal and Iscar lathe tools.

Wouldn't it be nice to have all the whole OSG

endmill line available as an X library??

[beej]

I wouldn't worry either. If this takes off for the guy he'll either have to add a programmer to his payroll or quit one or the other.

 

you can be all things to all people one time or one thing to all people all the time but you can't be all the things to all the people all the time. Or something like that....

[Mick]

Thanks for the interesting responses. There is just enough work to keep me busy with contract programming, and with the "free" (nothing is really for free, right? ) programming, it has hurt my business.

But, all the other scenarios, I have certainly thought through. I'm not stressing about it, but probably more concerned, that having put so much time into building this up, that someone can step in and offer the same thing for nothing. Well, almost nothing.

Either way, I cant see it lasting. And yeah, it is dog eat dog out there, but thats when all dogs have four legs each... hehehehehe

And gcode, yes, it would be great to have the tooling lines incorporated into readymade libraries.

[g huns]

quote:

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Wouldn't it be nice to have all the whole OSG endmill line available as an X library??

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Amen to that. Maybe in MR1?