What kind of X training would you like to see?

[Yogesh K. Raman]

With the recent outbreak of complaints about Ver.X I see a lot things brought up: excellent ideas/suggestion but there were also many rants.

 

I was thinking some of these maybe not was the product's fault, maybe it was the lack or poor conduct of training.

 

 

1. i would like hear feedback from you guys about the kind of trainings (upgrade etc.) that you went through or wish you went through for X.

 

2. and another thing, was there in any previous trainings that you guys went that the organizers took extra efforts so that you understand better? what was it?

 

3. would you appreciate it if the trainer followed up on you to see how much u progressed?

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Many of the rants could be solved with some formal training for sure. Even with V9 and previous, a LOT of issues peoiple had with the software could have been solved with some "... I DONT HAVE ANY TIME FOR EFFIN ..." training. They have enough time to have some cheese with their whine though.

[Guest]

quote:

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a LOT of issues peoiple had with the software could have been solved with some "... I DONT HAVE ANY TIME FOR EFFIN ..." training

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+1 James

 

[Elad]

quote:

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What kind of X training would you like to see?

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What about a little software that will convert jobs that i already did at X back to 9?

The training i need is how to uninstall this S@*T version!!!!!

[Beck]

quote:

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We have 4 seats and We are curently at V9.1. One programmer had a small window to learn X a few months ago while a job was on hold. He was able to write 8-10 3D programs, but it took 4-5 times longer. Then We got very busy again. So He switched back to 9.1. We are all very fast with 9.1 and We want to know "What is the best and quickest way to learn X". Basically, I want to know if you are currently staying with 9.1 or have you switched? And how long did the transition take to make the switch (if you did)? Also, did you learn on your own or get schooling? Please take the time to answer and I want to Thank You in advance for your advise. Beck

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This is the post I set up last week! By the answers I received and the other posts I have been reading, it is obvious to me now is that there are individuals that have time to learn by "jumping in with both feet." I do not have time to play around with it.

I have successfully learned other programming softwares by going to school. Each time, the classes started at ground zero and covered the basics. then built off of that. All the classes that I have attended for version X cover all the fancy new stuff, yet I have trouble with simple tasks.

Between the crashes and graphics problems and the bugs, I couldn't tell if it was the software or the programmer.

I am doing research to find out one thing: What is the fastest way to (correctly) learn version X. I see that there is a online video available, also books available and literature from Mastercam available. Are there also formal training classes offered? Who offers them?

Thank you for taking the time to respond to our questions! Beck

[Guest]

quote:

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Between the crashes and graphics problems and the bugs

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If you are experiencing many problems with crashes and graphics issues, short of the repeating tool path, I have to think those issues are hardware in nature. X just does not crash on me, hasn't crashed once, I don't believe, since SP1.

 

Bugs, the point many of us are trying to make is, many but certainly not all of the issues being raised, are training issues, not bugs. With that being said are there still some bugs, yes there are. I myself, have not seen one that I could not deal with. The V9 work arounds have become so ingrained people have forgotten that those were bugs too.

 

quote:

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What is the fastest way to (correctly) learn version X.

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I don't believe there is a "Fast" way. I have said it before and I'll say it again, seat time, seat time, seat time. It is the ONLY cure for what ails many. If they don't have time or won't make the time then they are the ones losing out. If a company will not help bring an employee/employees up to speed, then I would assess my employment there. They cannot have it both ways. They either want their employess up to speed and are willing to help or they don't and they don't care just a s long as the job is done. X IS a wholesale change from what was and mangers need to be aware of that and things that will be required to bring it up online if that is their goal.

 

As far as formal classes your local reseller will offer those. There is an option available at streaming teacher .com, where if a company allows internet access they can sign up for an account

and training can be done in the office, not my favorite way of doing it, too many distractions.

 

There are book available but ultimately it still ALL comes down to time.

[Beck]

quote:

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1. i would like hear feedback from you guys about the kind of trainings (upgrade etc.) that you went through or wish you went through for X.

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(from Yogesh)

 

I would like a class that offered ALL the basic information so I can easily move around without getting stuck. Topics like Tool Bars, Selection Methods, Icons, Menus, are just some of them. Once I am confident with the basics, then I can move around freely to explore the next level. The Mastercam literature starts out with "customization". I can't rearrange menus when I don't know what they are doing.

 

All the fancy features that are there are useless if it takes me 5 times longer to write a simple program.

Beck

[Beck]

quote:

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I don't believe there is a "Fast" way. I have said it before and I'll say it again, seat time, seat time, seat time. It is the ONLY cure for what ails many.

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I don't want a "fast" way, I want to know the "fastest" way. And by sitting in front of it and using it without any help is not going to get us there. While the programmer is putting in his "seat time", should it be online help, or a good manual, or is it at a class?

 

 

quote:

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X IS a wholesale change from what was and mangers need to be aware of that and things that will be required to bring it up online if that is their goal.

 

As far as formal classes your local reseller will offer those. There is an option available at streaming teacher .com, where if a company allows internet access they can sign up for an account

and training can be done in the office, not my favorite way of doing it, too many distractions.

 

There are book available but ultimately it still ALL comes down to time.

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This is helpful information and I thank You! Can you recommend some more than others? I do appreciate feedback and am willing to move forward.

 

Behind all this is the ultimate question. What is the payback period? Will the software be more difficult to learn since if it is not running smooth and should we wait for some unknown period of time? Will I be losing a competitive edge because I waited? The Maintenance program is complicating this also. Some day this will all be hind sight. But for now, I see a very clouded issue. Thank You for shedding some light!

Beck

[Reece L Gibson]

I offer a 3-d day basic class, and a 64 hour basic class for X. I hear it both ways, "I don't have time for 64 hours of training, the company can not afford to have me in class that long away from the shop".Then I hear "That's to much to fast, I need to move more slowly".

Both statements have their place. I found out when I run a moblie lab(training at your site)they do not have to leave the shop and we can use parts they want to machine as practice examples.Some companies only want to cover certain features, some want to cover the whole gamit.

Some want to cover creating geometry, some just want to import models and run tool paths.

 

Actually, Ver X has great features that stream line the seat time,I will let the Ver 9 er's create geometry the way they are used to, then show different techquines to do the same thing.

I say the besy way is the way you understand.

I throw as many different ways to do something at you, and you use the way you understand.

Depends if your a 2-d,3-d,4-5 axis,Millturn or all of the above shop,.The boss rarely want to pay for the whole gamit.

Try night classes at the local college.

I do not have all answers

[Beck]

Thank You Reece,

I appreciate your answer. If I (or We) were to attend class, I am insisting on a teacher who is primarily an Instructor and who has prepared materials for some intense training. If the class were customized to our needs and our speed of learning, the length of training could be minimized.

 

Beck

[Thad]

quote:

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If the class were customized to our needs and our speed of learning, the length of training could be minimized.

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I couldn't agree with this more. I've attended 3 classes at our dealer and 2 of them were *almost* a total waste of time. There were rookie instructors at both. While some students struggled with the right mouse click, there was even a guy in one class who didn't know how to turn the computer on.

 

The one class that was great was the class that consisted of 5 people from our company and we gave them a list in advance of things we wanted to cover, along with sample files. We covered (in depth) 3D toolpaths, manipulating splines, Moldplus, creating/editing surfaces, and solids. The instructor (Max Burgel) was top notch! There was no dicking around while people were still trying to figure out the trim function or how to change construction planes or the color of their geometry. We knew what we needed to cover in that class and we attacked it. That is how a class should run.

 

 

quote:

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it is obvious to me now is that there are individuals that have time to learn by "jumping in with both feet." I do not have time to play around with it.

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The key is to be a quick learner. If you can see something once and remember it; and more importantly, apply it to other situations, then there's all kinds of time to learn the software.

 

On the other hand, I've trained people who after 3 weeks of constant attention, sitting side by side for the entire day, still couldn't get a grasp on drilling holes. Guys like that will be in your class telling the instructor to slow down while you're trying to learn it "the fastest way."

 

You've either gotta have it in you to learn quick or you've got to bust your a$$, plain and simple. Get the demo and use it at home EVERY night. Spend your break and lunch time figuring it out. Open the Help and read it. Read this forum, past and present. Go to the FTP's Drawings folder and download the lathe and mill zip files that I put up there. Create them all and machine them. Various component websites (Carr Lane, De-Sta-Co, Reid Tool Supply) have CAD drawings that you can download. Google "engineering drawings," etc for more files to play with. It's all up to YOU. Few places are giving handouts.

 

End of rant.

 

Thad

[Yogesh K. Raman]

quote:

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The key is to be a quick learner.

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obviously I don't have that key..

[cadcam]

oh ya don't forget the other 4 gigs of mastercam files on the FTP besides just Thads.

 

I teach in a few places , there are lots of places that offer Mastercam training out here hopfully out there to.

 

I know me and Rob from are office teach at the office and the NTMA training centers and even teach at the local collage and have a small training center in my office at home.

 

Also do some training on line to.

So there has to be an option for you.

[Mike Mattera - TFM]

Any one can learn how to use Mastercam and be good at it. You just have to invest some time and go thru the examples. Everyone says the want better classes and better teachers. I've seen dealers put on specialized classes and not be able to fill them. Good, experienced Mastercam programmers are not cheap. Having them teach a class for 2-3 poeple is not a good return on investment.

 

No one has time to take a class and learn the right way of doing something. They would rather struggle and complain how the software dosent do what they want.

 

In my 18 years of teaching Mastercam I've found that most people want to know the same things. Once youn learn some of those basics, other functions/problems are more easily overcome. The most important thing in any training is to learn how to fix mistakes. We all make mistakes, so recovery is the key to success. If I make a mistake in my training videos, I leave it in and show people how to fix the mistake. It's real world stuff.

 

I wish decent video training was available for every program I wanted to learn. Good advice from a person with experience. Books work for some people, but not me. I like video training.

 

Mike Mattera

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

+1 Mike

[David Conigliaro CNC Software Inc.]

It might be interesting to create a poll to see just how many people using X have actually had any formal training on it to date. Our guess it that the less then 10% of the users on the forum have actually done anything proactively other then just taking it on and hoping for the best ?

 

We have been involved in producing extensive cirriculum for X and from what we can tell by just paying attention its pretty clear most everyone is just winging it!

 

We had the good fortune to recieve factory training directly from the guys who developed the software one on one at CNC Softwares headquarters. We came to the table with a combined 10,000 classroom hours in front of Michigan Tool and Die guys teaching Mastercam since version 5.0. We found the new software a challenge it took some time but now have come to understand it at a whole different level. My point is that fella's you need to get a real training plan put together! It was work for us and we have spent thousands of hours learning and training people. Its not fair to wing it for a few months on your own and say it must be the software. There are tools and classes available for you to pursue.

 

If the guys on the forum are struggling imagine how the poor other guys not utilizing this medium are fairing.

 

The sad part is "X" is much, much better then a lot of people realize but very few are bothering to take the time for training to see whats really possible. The depth and capabiblity of the software is only going to become more powerful and intense going forward. No time to learn we all say but lots of time to do things over and over the hard way.

 

We trained formally for the better part of a decade in Michigan I can tell you from personal experience 90% of the users are working at about 30% to 40% of whats possible at best! As most of you know our lack of competitiveness in Michigan is resulting in massive losses of jobs in the Detroit area. Sure some of it is unavoidable due to global outsourcing but plenty of it has to due with people unwilling or unable to step up their game to the next level. Mastercam is stepping up their game significantly over the next few releases the question is are we! From the way it looks most users aren't going the extra mile to get some help. Anybody else curious about what the real #'s of trained users look like ? I'd bet it would tell a pretty graphic story about whats really going on.

 

Cheers and Chips

Chuck B. (Former Training Manager for Axsys in Michigan)

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

10,000 classroom hours... that's what... 40 or so YEARS give or take???

 

James teh smartarse

 

Well Chuck, I happen to agree with you. We (the US) loose more to outsourcing because of our lack of going the extra mile than China's unfair trade practices IMHO. It's exactly that guy that posted here...

Look near the bottom of the page... Clicky

 

JM2C

[El Scotthead]

I haven't had the training yet(end of January). And while I couldn't jump in head first and just start using X due to workload, I made it a point to get some seat time every day...even if it was only for a half hour. I read through the manuals and help files first. Then just played with stuff. Then I started creating geometry in it and doing the toolpathing in V9. Now I'm using X exclusively, and am faster than I was in V9. But if I would have had my way(as opposed to the boss having his way--which he did) I would've gone to training the day we received X. We would've definitely been up to full speed much faster by taking training right off the bat(or at least what we now perceive as full speed).

 

So, in answer to Yogesh, now I'm going to have them go over pretty much the same stuff Thad mentioned above...show me the stuff I DIDN'T pick up on my own. I'd also like to see something along the lines of Iskander's Lazy Tricks incorporated into it...you know, little tips, tricks, and shortcuts that will make me faster/more efficient.

 

 

scotthead has left the building

[Reverend Turk]

I will be going through the training at the end of January as well and I am lookiong forward to it. I have done what most people suggest and have jumped in feet first with X. Being that I used EdgeCam before,this is a little different. But I have done the examples in the book as well as used the demo CD which has some great practice stuff on it.

Actually how I found this site was looking up more information on X to see if there were sites with downloadable examples for me to try. I want to learn as much as possible before I go into the training that way I will be able to worry about the more advanced aspects of the program and focus on those.

I will let you know how the training goes once I am finished.

[David Conigliaro CNC Software Inc.]

Hey James,

 

Thanks for the linky actually believe it our not when you train full time virtually every week is easy to spend 1400 to 1500 hours a year infront of people. Do it 5-6 years and the #'s add up. The hours I mentioned is a combination of my time and my partners over 7 years working the michigan reseller.

 

Thanks for the link. I'm not sure how things are going out west but it's been tough for peope in the rust belt. I know plenty of journeymen tool and die guys working at the Lowes and home depot stacking Lumber for 9 Bucks it's sad.

 

Chuck

[Thad]

quote:

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I know plenty of journeymen tool and die guys working at the Lowes and home depot stacking Lumber for 9 Bucks it's sad.

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How come they're not answering our ads in the paper?

 

Thad

[David Conigliaro CNC Software Inc.]

Thad,

 

The guys I'm talking about never upgraded their technical skills and made the move to programming from bridgports and surface grinders. Got any opening for bridgeport operators at 18-20 per hour?

 

Nice to see your comments about Max Burgel. I was his boss and trained him. He's a great guy! he's since moved on to Toyota.. Imagine that! They know how to pluck the cheeries!. He got a job offer while teaching one of their prototype engineers.

 

He's doing well they made him that offer you can't refuse so to speak..

 

Good to hear from the Michigan guys.

 

Chuck

[Thad]

Chuck,

 

We don't have a Bridgeport that can hold .010! Maybe I should put this reply in the "Cheap Company" thread? Typically, our Bridgeport operators do all the gravy (making keys, milling clearance, etc), which only warrants 12-16/hr.

 

I heard Max went to Toyota. That was a definate loss for Axsys. I would think guys like that are hard to come by. In our class, we asked him a question about surfaces. He said, "Well, let's see." In about 10 seconds, he had 2 surfaces created in different colors on different levels and we were comparing the 2. He was phenomenal! It must've been great working with him.

 

Thad

[Thad]

Chuck,

 

I am prompted for a username and password to see your website?

 

Thad

[Mike Mattera - TFM]

-- "The guys I'm talking about never upgraded their technical skills" --

 

This is the difference between having a job and having a career.

 

Career: n, profession - conduct in life, or progress thru life.

 

I was so facinated with machine tools and CNC technology, you couldn't keep me away from learning. Before I knew it I had a career.

 

Mike Mattera