Pro's & Con's of Fadal Machines! Anyone?

[FLIPPER™]

Hey Gang,

How are the Fadal's now a days. They have a new series I understand.

Ran a few in earlier days but now I’m thinking of giving them a try again.

Mostly for soft milling.

Longevity, accuracy and so on. What do you think.

Also I believe we may be finally moving to MCX.

MC-X2...

[gcode]

quote:

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How are the Fadal's now a days

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I've heard they make an excellent anchor, almost

as good as a Haas

[Bruce Caulley]

The fish love them. Best artificial reef there is.

[Guest]

People will scream how they love them.

 

They are a POS, poorly made, not very accurate, that will require lots of $$ in yearly maintenance. The people who like them have either not run a real machine or they fell in love because it gave them 3 or 4 axis milling ability at a comparably low price.

 

A good machine is not cheap, a cheap machine is not good.

 

If you are starting a business it might give a cheap machining option but the machine is a throw away with little residual value.

 

SO in short.

 

Pro = Cheap

Con = Everything else

[Tom Brown from Stork Inc.]

The first thing I would look at is the drive coupler from the servo motors to the ball screw. If it's still a lovejoy (rubber) coupler, then stay away!

[billystein]

"If you are starting a business it might give a cheap machining option but the machine is a throw away with little residual value."

 

I dont hear this guy make a lot of really stupid statements like this one.

 

the fadals are easier and faster to setup than the old fanuc controlled machines that I ran. I love the fact that the dnc is so easy to use. the old memory issues with fanuc controls were notorious and very expensive.

i am starting a new business and can't afford a new machine. I found a rebuilt fadal 1990ish and it was double the price of a mazak the same size in pretty good condition. I found a sabre for a little bit less but was talked out of it by one of our forum brothers that doesn't like fadals.

i could buy an old 1980ish japanese machine that runs pretty good but the tool changer cant be fixed for 5k to 10k.

the service on fadals is local here and they come in a day or 2. they carry the parts to do almost anything and they can replace a motor and ball screw in less than a day. much cheaper than japanese machine

 

one shop I was in had a lot of machines. snk,viper,enshu,okk and one fadal. they are aircraft shop. production environment. fadal is used everyday but is nothing special.

 

if you dont believe they are accurate then ask ernie from verisurf about cutting optical reflectors.

 

sure we would all like a shop full of mori's but there are a lot of really bad machines out there.

 

billy

[Rakesh]

Now I am talking about 1995 to 2000. In last company where I work they bought the 2 fadal 4020 with palet changer in 1995. I worked that company til 2000 and I worked every day on these machines.

First problem was with pallet changer. Sensor which sense the pallet, park condition, need to replace frequently. When the operator load the part and use so much air coolant goes in the sensor and these senor are not sealed propery. We always have 2-3 sensor to keep replacing after 5-6 months.

SEcond problem we have in both machine with coolant through spindle. There is ceramic seal in the spindle which protect the coolant from leakage. But In our case there was always leakage and there is spindle belt and this belt get wet with the leakage and start slipping

Third problem was with chip conveyor. We had both the machine with drum type chip conveyor and had always problem with this. It req lot of care. This drum have a fine screen and this you have to keep it clean otherwis get plug and coolant in the machine stay there.

Only good thing was that the machine comes with Fadal control I forget exact name. That control is very good, have software to varify the toolpath, control very friendly to work and also control have complet pc in it so lot of memory to save the program and to load program with simple floppy can work.

Now they have fadal also with Fanuc control.

Last week I visit SMS and they carry Fadal in toronto. They improve lot inthe machine now.

Now the machine comes with the Fanuc control. So the machine is back up with good servo motors, They don't have the drum type chip conveyor anymore.If you not buying the paletchanger so you need not worry about that aspect also.

Machine is good for the money what you paying for.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

I don't have any Fadals in my shop but I have a friend that has a 96 I think 3016 (don't remember the model number. VT15 or XT15...)

he's had it running 12/15 hours a day. 7 days a week with no issues. Bought it about 14 or 15 months ago. It now, after 10 years needs an X axis ballscrew...

I think he gave 24k for it with a fourth axis included. 10K spindle and a lot of tooling, including a 10hp Phase Perfect

I'm not a big fan of Fadal, but they can certainly make money.

When I was looking for a new mill, I thought about one but bought my little box way Sharp instead because it had box ways, and a Fanuc control

[irideevo2]

the small Fadal Line was sold to I believe Cincinnati from g&l a few months back

the newer Fadal's with the Fanuc control & drive motors are very fast and accurate (for price)

stay away from any of the linear guide machines as they have dropped this line

good machine for price plan on replacing it after 3-4 years if your doing close tol. work

[RandyN]

Lol, I hate these fadal/haas horror stories. I have worked at a lot of shops in my lifetime, and ran quite a few fadal/haas machines, and made good parts on all of them. Not all shops can afford top of the line, and probably don't need them either.

 

Lets stop giving bad information because we work at shops with makinos, most of the bad mouthers never had to purchase a machine with their own money....

[Kevangel]

quote:

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Not all shops can afford top of the line, and probably don't need them either.

 

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For the average small shop owner starting out with borrowed money, top of the line equipment may put you out of business...

[JNO]

quote:

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A good machine is not cheap, a cheap machine is not good.

 

If you are starting a business it might give a cheap machining option but the machine is a throw away with little residual value.

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I agree with John, You get what you pay for! Haas/Fadal machines are OK for the money,and great for someone that doesn't have 250K to spend on a top of the line machine. But like john said, they aren't made to last.If they were they would cost 250K!

[Guest]

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most of the bad mouthers never had to purchase a machine with their own money....

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Perhaps not but some of us but some of us HAVE had to jusify the costs and expenditures and maintenance and then answer why it costs so much to maintain a certain machine and so little comparably on others. Just because we don't write that check does NOT we don't follow the $$. With the tolerances we cut on an everyday basis anything less than a top quality machine is NOT an option.

 

You guys might try reading my entire post before you run me across a buzz saw.

 

quote:

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A good machine is not cheap, a cheap machine is not good.

 

If you are starting a business it might give a cheap machining option but the machine is a throw away with little residual value.

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JNO picked up on it

 

They have little residual value, nevermind buying one, try trading it in. We got equal value offer on a 19 y/o Mori Seiki that we were offered on a 9 y/o Fadal.

 

It is an option for the starting out or small shop. Just not a good one IMNSHO but an option, yes.

[RandyN]

I have yet to see someone throw away a fadal/haas after 3 years because its worn out. In fact, if someone replaces one, it gets resold and now it is a new piece of equipment to the second owner...

 

I care about equipment too, and would love to have the best money can buy, but in reality I'm going to use what is supplied and make good parts. The shop I'm at now has Haas machines, and we work them HARD 7 days a week cutting tool steel with high feed cutters, etc.

 

I had my own shop with my Dad, and we bought mori's, and I loved them. If I started another shop today, I wouldn't think twice about buying a Haas, as I know for the price I could earn a lot of money with one. And if someone asked me what I thought of a Fadal or Haas I would tell them they are "good bang for the buck".

 

YMMV

[Guest]

Randy,

 

I think that is the difference right there.

 

You and others are simply worried about running a part on the floor and getting the job done.

 

In turn, I am worried about creating a manufacturing process that is reliable, repeatable and most of a tight.

 

I come at it from a completely different point of view.

 

But you are correct it is an option.

 

[Keith Graydon]

My experience shows them to be a light duty machine that is simple, flexible and reliable.

The CNC 88hs controller is not my favorite but it gets the jobs done.

 

'97 3016 dc servos. grease fittings. linear ways. "0" mainanance issues. runs every day. Extended memory card vibrated out of the slot once. no biggie. I overheated the "Y" axis motor once. thermal protection did its job.

 

2001 3016. linear ways, Bijur Lube.

spindle controller replaced. no other problems.

runs everyday.

 

 

2003 6030 boxway. Bijur Lube. never a problem. runs almost every day.

 

 

-Keith

[Thee Dragracer1951]

I think the difference is that John is a captive shop, not a contract shop. The process is king at Johns shop. This is a large difference.

At my shop, I bought a Haas Mini for 25K. in two years it's made over 200k in revenue. It has cost about $700 in repair and maintance. I can sell it today for the same $25k that I paid for it.

I have a Haas SL10 and barfeed. I paid $49.5K for it and I've had it about a year. I've paid about 6k maintance and reapir on it. I can sell it for what I have into it. It's going to get traded in for another Daewoo in a year. I've already talked to the owner of the Daewoo dealer here in Seattle and he assures me I won't loose a dime on that machine. Is the Haas as good a machine as the Daewoo? Nope. Will it give me a respectable rate of return on investment? Yup. Does it keep "MY" customers happy? Yup.

So there are a couple different ways of looking at a machine besides it's machining performance.

I also would love to have a shop full of Mori's and Makino's. Not yet...they have a lower Rate of return on investment. By that I mean that I can not charge my customer more because I use a Mori instead of a Haas. It takes me longer to pay for the Mori, I pay more in interest as well.

I've made some compromises in my shop by buying new machines that are not as much money as a mori but are solid reliable performers. Doing so has raised my rate of return on investment and increased my shops capacity, allowing me to get into more diverse markets and improving my bottom line

Haas's and Fadals are not a throwaway machine. Show me one that was thrown away and I'll go xxxx it up.

Many guys are not able to get into business with new machines. I was one of them. With hard work and inteligent choices though I am now buying new machines that allow me to grow my business. I have bought three machines this year. Two of them new. I have also increased my sales by over 400%. I did that with Haas machines. Will I buy more Haas's? Nope. But that's because I have issues with the service organization. Not the machine.

 

There is not a person here that I do not respect their opinion. But I have to take exception with John about taking responsibility for a purchase decision. There's a big difference between getting your butt chewed over maintance costs and loosing everything you own because it put you into bankruptcy.

 

Just another point of view

[pronc]

If you are going to start a new shop or your shop is small, Fadal or Haas will be a good option. If your shop is well established, acquiring Fadal or Haas as your main work horses then that will be a bad management decision. High end machines are not only more accurate than low end machines, they pump out more parts than the low end. If you stick with fadal and Haas you are not being competitive.

[RandyN]

With that in mind, maybe there isn't one right answer to the age old question "is a haas or fadal a decent machine for me?", so we shouldn't be so quick with the "they are disposable crap" answers...

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Bingo!!!

[Rick Henrickson The Boeing Co.]

look at YCM before buying HAAS or FADAL not quite as cheap but close and 10 times the machine!

[Guest]

OK, so opinions are no longer allowed

 

Duly noted

 

We'll have to ask Dave to add that to the FAQ

 

[RandyN]

Sure they are John, and not sure why you think anything I said is directed at you, these posts pop up all the time, and I usually defend the fadal/haas because that is what we use to do what we do, and I feel we do it as well as anyone else out there.

[gcode]

quote:

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they are disposable crap

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they are disposable crap, but you can

(and I have) made a boatload of money with them.

Haas and Fadal have made it possible for thousands of small shops to step up to CNC.

They also forced the Japanese, Korean and Tiawanese manufactures to lower thier prices.

I've owned 2 Haas VMC in the past and thought they were great. Then I worked with Moris and

Kitamuras and Okumas and learned what a real machine tool was. I'd buy another Haas if I had to

but I'd much rather have a Mori

[Guest]

quote:

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Sure they are John, and not sure why you think anything I said is directed at you,

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Well I dunno.

 

I was the one that stated they were disposable

quote:

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but the machine is a throw away

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You "seemed" to take that comment and run with it.

 

So that's prolly why.

 

All good