Pro's & Con's of Fadal Machines! Anyone?

[camgeneration]

You Might want to consider Mazak, I have used some of them and found them to be very dependable, well built machines. They are mid range in price, but much more of a machine than fadal or haas.

[jeff]

Mori has a couple verticals that are 100K give or take.

Don't know how much a new fadal would be for the same size (40 x 20) but that's not a bad price for a Mori.

The same size Okuma will run you about 135K

HTH

[Zoober]

Having been around Fadals since the early 80's and having been a service manager for a Fadal (and other brands)dealer for over 6 yrs, I can lend a pretty good view on Fadals and their place.

 

1) ALL machines break.

2) fadals break more often than more $$ machines

 

Now, that said, I have seen shops with one, and I have seen shops with more than 30 fadals. practically every one will say they made money with them.

Most shops with Fadals and Haas' bought them not because they were cheap, but because they could afford them at the time. Lots of them graduated to better (read more $$) machines, some stuck with them.

Having worked on many machines, I would buy a Fadal or Haas if it was all I could afford. I think that is why people buy them, period. They can make money without spending big dollars to do it. Isn't that the bottom line?

In all of the shops I have been in, there are only a handfull of owners that regret buying a cheap machine, but a lot of machinists that dogged them as a "cheapo".

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Personally, I take the word of a guy that puts his hands on a machine every day over shop owners. Not to dog shop owners but they are not the ones having to fight a .002 roundness call out or a .001 True Position callout on lesser machines.

 

My only real experience with a Fadal was not a good one. I was machining some square blocks with a half sphere on the top. I had been running them with no problems, out of the blue the machine plunges through the center of the sphere scrapping the part and nearly getting me fired. Strange anomalies like that make my skin crawl because no matter what after that, every time I pressed cycle start I though it could happen again. Anyway, there were NO changes made to the program, no changes to tool or fixture offsets, nothing, nada. My only saving grace was the same thing happend on the night shift once as well.

 

Would I buy a used smaller japanese machine? Yep, you betcha because I KNOW a Fanuc is not going to do something like that to me.

 

JM2C

[billystein]

John,

one point that you might not have considered is these machines are constantly being rebuilt and recycled. they are so much cheaper to bring back to life and parts are available. they sell very high compared to many machines the same age.

I constantly check ebay for used machines so that is my source of info.

[SLJ]

We have a 4020 and a 3016, both going on 8-10 years old. We run mostly alum. extrusion on them, light cuts for the most part. They have seen more repair and more downtime than any other machine in the shop. We won't be buying more.

[3R!< W3NG3R]

We were looking for a used Fadal two years ago. Every machine we looked at needed at least one ball screw and something else. One machine needed all three ball screws, and a few other things. The tech helping me find these machines took the table and moved it about half an inch each way by hand.

 

After looking at about 8 machines we got totally turned off of Fadal (and used machines), and ended up buying a new Mazak instead. Hindsight shows that this was the best choise so far. The Mazak costs a little more (nexus), but the output has been huge.

 

Just to note: we are a small job shop. Even a shop like ours benefits from good machines and production features.

[Storkman]

quote:

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They have seen more repair and more downtime than any other machine in the shop. We won't be buying more.

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Same here. Ours was gone after about 6 years, never to return. When new machine purchases come up, they are not even considered.

[TheePres]

I have had oppurtunity to work with Mori-Seikis, Makinos, S&K..etc Machines and also with disposable throw-aways such as Hass and Fadal. They are light years away from each other in quality and price. But on performance and output have not seen much difference. Sure, I would prefer to run a $1 million machine thats holds .0002 tolerances all day long. But on the majority of work (aerospace) that ive been fortunate to work on these past 10 years, the Fadal and Hass hold there own. If i were to start a shop they would be my 1st choice.

[Zoober]

On more thing to consider is the cost of crashes. Small shops starting out may not be able to afford good talent, and have to settle. We all know how many good machinists there are, and getting less and less.

I have been to one shop in Norcal, to replace 3 -yes 3! spindles on a Niigata horizontal in less than a year, due to crashes. Was it because the Niigata is an inferior machine?? No, but because they couldn't get good people. I have seen the same on mori and miyano lathes (two of the best in my opinion), only on a lathe, include turret damage as well.

 

 

Factor in 40K per spindle, along with B axis alignment etc.., and you've just about got the price of a throw-away.

 

I mention the above, not because I like cheapies (we have Niigata, Mitsui, Mazak etc.. horizontals, with 8 pallets min.), but to point out that they DO have their places.

[Storkman]

Easy folks. The guy asked for opinions. That is what he is getting. I am sure he didn't expect them to all be the same opinion. Some people have a use for the Fadals and Haas, others don't. I think it depends on what he plans on machining and how big his pockets are.

[Andy]

I have a small shop with 1 cnc mill. Fadal 1990, box way, had it for 11 years. 1 Mori lathe.

I take good care of the fadal and run it conservatively. Never had a repair on it. It has made me nothing but money and lots of it. Totally reliable. Easy to use and program. For me it is pure profit. Now, mind you, I only rarely have to hold tenths. And then only with a good boring head . I would love to have a high end machine, but it is not necessary and would not make good money sense with the work that is available for us in our area. For more expensive and high tolerance work a more expensive machine may be necessary and would make better financial sense and I would not hesitate to step up. The Mori lathe, of course, is a dream and I love it, but it only does 15% of the work. I was lucky and got a great deal on it. It is 1990 and had it for 8 years, no repair either.

Every shop has different needs and do what works best for them.

By the way James, I am one of those shop owners who runs machines and fights tolerances every day.

I may be the exception however.

[FLIPPER™]

Thanks for all your responses more than I anticipated. This will help us. Yes we figured it may be a throw away machine in about 8-10 years if we are lucky. Then again that may be all we need for now. Thanks again. always a great forum.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Perhaps I should have said; Shop owners are not USUALLY the ones having to fight a .002 roundness call out or a .001 True Position callout on lesser machines.

 

Thanks for pointing out my error Gordon.

[Thad]

quote:

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.002 roundness call out or a .001 True Position callout

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What's that?

 

We've been pouding on our Fadals cutting tool steel on a daily basis. I've also cut more 58-60 Rc tool steel on these things than I care to remember. Our machines are from the early 90s and we continue to to have multi-million dollar profit every year. Meanwhile, over the past 5-6 years, thousands (around 4,000 to be exact) of shops in the Detroit area have gone under. Also note, we do NO high speed machining, we DON'T use coated carbide endmills, and we DON'T machine solids. Some would say that's a recipe for disaster. Currently, there's no end to the work load in sight.

 

Thad

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

It's what there seems to be an over abundance of for me lately. Actually that roundness should have another "0" on it (i.e. .0002).

 

75% of what I've programmed over the last 3 months has been just shy of Jig Bore tolerances to be run on good equipment thankfully. I HATE trying to chase inconsistent EQUIPMENT problems in programs. Makes for a bugger of a day.