Verification software

[Thee Dragracer1951]

I'm trying to choose verification software for my shop as I've had some unexpected machine moves in my code. Those that I know of are Metacut, Predator and Cimco

Any others that I should me looking at?

Pro's?

Con's?

Thanks

[Guest]

Vericut is king of verification software but it is pricey

 

I don't know that any of the ones you mentioned operate at the same level as Vericut does.

 

If I'm wrong about that someone should be beating me over the head shortly

[Tim Johnson]

There's also Delmia. Vericut was better for us when we did our search but Delmia was in second place. The price was about the same.

[William Grizwald]

Vericut.

As stated, it's "pricey" (will cost more than your seat of MC). But, that's a call that only your type of work can dictate.

 

--

Bill

[DavidB]

+1 Vericut.

 

How much would it cost you if your machine was down for a week or two with a crashed spindle?

 

Or if you scrapped a 1 off job.

 

Vericut only needs to pick up one machine crash and it's paid for itself.

 

Nothing beats Verifing posted G-code

[Jack Neelands™]

I have to agree with the gents above

Vericut is the best that I know of out there and has saved not just mine but many others from some mighty embarrasing moments

you factor in the cost of replacing $10,000 worth of spindle bearings and the down time to get that fixed in say a 1 week shift @ $5,000 potential income minimum

not too mention the man hours to tear it apart and put it back together again in say two days

then a day to set the machine right again

 

 

then the killer ...you buggered a drive screw as well when you get it going and realize that the one axis isnt moving

 

I watched a guy from the night shift get demoted from programmer/operator to washroom custodian/floor technician for just such a crash and not using vericut when it was available in the shop

[gcode]

Predator is a 1/4 the price of Vericut and

I'v used it for years. It can't hold a candle to Vericut but it has saved my butt more times than I can count. Sadly, I cannot recommend buying it because there is no (spell that zero) customer support.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Gcode

That's exactly what I need to hear.

I'm just a little shop, I have to look at dollar expenditures. I KNOW that I need to get some form of verification software. I KNOW that there are systems out there that (to me) are huge money and have every feature known to man. What I need is somewhere between the graphics on the control display and the top of the line. I use the Cimco editor in X2 to do file transfers and rarely do any DNC stuff so really...I just need the G code verification function to feel good about pushing the button. Another thing is that I have just sent one of my guys to Mastercam school for the basic Mill cource and in a couple months we're going to send him to the advanced class. So I'd like HIM to be able to have confidence to send code to the machine.

I guess I'm saying that while I'd like to get the program with th emost features, and I realize that may be the long term best thing, I have to compromise on the money. So I need the best bang for the bux

[gcode]

Jim,

Predator works and its easy to use.

It costs about 1K per axis. Just like Mastercam needs a post, Predator and Vericut need reverse posts.

Predator ships with a bunch of reverse posts

and for 3 and 4 axis machines they are pretty good right out of the box. I've developed several

5 axis reverse posts and its not too hard.

 

I've used their V5 product for 3 4 and 5 axis work

for 5 years. The graphics were crummy, but simulation speed and visualization of motion was excellent. I used it for some 5X parts so big that MC verfiy would not even load them.

 

Predator recently came out with a new release

PVCNC V7

The graphics are 1000% better but the price was performance. Simulation speed is way down and it can't even load the STL for the large part mentioned previously.

 

If your parts fit in an 18 x 18 x 18 work envelope, its still a very useful product and worth the money.

 

My biggest issue with Predaotr is support. There is none at all. If you have a problem, you will be on your own. The last release of V5

(May 2005) had a critical show stopping bug which I have reported several times, but it was never fixed.

As a result I still use the V5 version from July of 2004 and I've let my maintenance expire.

 

If you want to try it your can download it and

they will send you 30 day evaluation codes.

 

Vericut goes to the other extreme. It the world class flagship of verification software and can simulate everything but the chips bouncing off the glass. Support and training are available and

limited only by the size of your wallet.

Price can range from 10K to 60K depending

on the features you buy, but a 3/4 axis system

cost about the same as a level 2 Mastercam seat does.

[Doug Gabbey]

I would have agreed with gcode until last summer but Predator has a new guy working on Tech Support called Frank Bakenau. He is making a big difference and while he has not yet resolved all my problems he has helped me a lot and does follow through on problems.

I would suggest trying them and see if they have a reverse post that already suits your needs or only needs minor mods.

[gcode]

Doug,

I'm glad to hear that. Predator is a good product.

Viable customer support can only make it better.

[YoDoug®]

We were able to justify the cost of Vericut by adding their Opti-path module. The cycle time savings in our case will pay for the software in less than a year. Now that we have Vericut I coudn't imagine sending code to the shop without running it through Vericut first.

[Colin Gilchrist]

Jim,

 

For bang for the buck performance, go with Predator. Steve Kidd is a representive so you will have good local support. You will also have much better luck with support in Washington than in California.

 

HTH,

[kccadcam]

We just purchased Predator VCNC from Frank Bakanau.

Support is getting MUCH better. (It helps having their headquarters only a couple of miles away from here!!)

They just released a new version and we are working with him on a few issues now.

I don't think you can beat it for the amount of functionality vs. price.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

I just emailed Cimtech about Predator so we'll see what happens. I also would like to look at Metacut and I understand that Cimco has verification software as well

[Anthony CIMCO]

Dragracer...

 

For Verification you really need to limit your evaluation to Vericut and Virtual CNC (Predator). Our CIMCO Edit app has a great backplotter - that even supports solids for 3D milling, but... that isn't what you are looking for.

 

If you are looking for "full blown" CNC program verification those are your choices. Nothing else is even worth looking at. gcode really said it all above. Bottom line, if VCNC has the reverse posts you need you really can't beat it. If you want the top-of-the-line and are willing to pay for it then Vericut is your choice. I don't think you would be disappointed with either product.

 

Side note - I have always found it interesting that companies with hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars worth of CNC equipment on their shop floor find it hard to come up with a fraction of that to purchase verification software. Vericut and Virtual CNC are like insurance policies - that actually pay off before you crash a machine. Speed isn't an issue and both products are very, very accurate. Why isn't everyone using this stuff?

[MLS]

 

Why would one need a reverse post for Vericut?

 

Vericut makes a rookie look good on the shop floor.

[gcode]

quote:

---

Why would one need a reverse post for Vericut

---

Vericut uses the reverse post to interpret the gcode. Thats how it knows what the machine is going to do with the gcode.

Vericut can also run Mastercam NCI, but that has drawbacks. If you have an error in your post

or you've got a bad toolplane on a toolpath,

NCI verifcation will not catch it and you'll look bad on the shop floor

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Anthony

You bring up even more questions for me...

I guess I don't know enough about this softeware then. I "thought" I wanted to get a graphical representation of what the code would do. As in, it would show me any glareing errors.

Am I correct in assuming that these "Full Blown" verification systems will backplot your code, create a file and then you can compare that to the original model? That "may" be more than I was thinking I needed. What I "thought" I needed, was a version of Verify that runs on the Gcode, not the NCI file.

See, I couldn't understand (maybe I still don't) why I couldn't get metacut for not a lot of money, and that would do the trick.

Please note, I am not adverse to spending the money. But I need to know why one is that much better than the other.

[MLS]

Is this a feature of the Mastercam interface gcode?

 

We use machine and control files for Vericut and run the G-code. Is that what you are talking about???

 

I agree that NCI or APT is not the way to go as far as Verifying, but it can serve as a faster visual and measurable reference while programming. Xcaliper and Autodiff are my friends.

[MLS]

Dragracer

 

Vericut can do all these things, but the extra ones you speak of are add-on features. You pay the base for the Verification, then add-ons include Multiaxis, Machine Sim, Autodiff, Optipath, etc.

 

We use Vericut on everything the shop runs. Typically if the programmer knows how to cut a part, Vericut provides the means to get a first article off any machine in the shop. If they are relatively small parts, then the advantage is not as much, but on a $6000 dollar piece of material, a few first articles pay for the software quickly.

[Anthony CIMCO]

Dragracer

 

If all you want to do is quickly catch any obvious errors in your CNC code then most of today's popular CNC Editor applications will do the trick for you.

 

What you get when you go to Vericut or Virtual CNC is a "virtual" machine, where you are able to cut a "virtual part" on a "virtual machine." Here are some examples of what I mean:

 

1. Stock - you can create basic and advanced stock shapes to more accurately represent the stock you are using. You may also import STL models to exactly represent your stock - such as importing a stock model from a previous operation. This is a huge feature. This is also true for including your fixture(s) in your verification process. (Very cool, and important in many cases.)

 

With CIMCO Edit 5 (I can't speak for other editors, because I honestly don't know) does allow you to create solids for 3D milling parts, but using standard stock. Nice, if that is good enough for what you need.

 

2. Tooling - you are able to verify your part using exact representations of your tools, including the cutting tool, the tool holder, extensions, etc. - even the spindle/head can be "checked". This gives you the most accurate representation of what your "as-machined" part is going to look like, all from your CNC code. This is also very valuable for checking for collisions with your part. After all, you can't gouge check something that isn't there to be checked.

 

3. Accuracy and Cycle Times - this ties in a little with the stock/fixture and tooling notes above, but that is only part of the verification process. To get the most accurate "virtual part" you need a very accurate modeling of your CNC control and machine. For example, when your machine rapids does it do a 90 degree rapid or does it dog leg. If it dog legs and you are unable to check that your plot could look perfect, but in reality your part is going to go slicing through islands, stock, or fixturing - not good and the potential to be a heck of at lot more expensive than the cost of Vericut or Virtual CNC. With both products you are able to truly define how your machine operates. As a bi-product, you also get very accurate cycle times for your parts. Not guestimates but real times. How much is that worth?

 

For the most accurate verification you can get Machine Simulation - but that is another post for another time!

 

 

Bottom line - Edit 5 and a few other editors are great for rapidly checking your CNC programs. You get a plot that shows you where a tool is going to move. Many people use backplotting as a quick intermediate step as they are working on or programming their part(s). Of course, Edit 5 and other editors are much more than just back plotters and that is where the value is found. For the price, you should own a great editor and a great verification tool. Regardless, the best final step before you hit cycle start on your CNC is to run your CNC program through a tool like Vericut or Virtual CNC.

 

And, as a smart programmer you always have CIMCO Edit 5 on your desktop for quick edits, math ops, file compare, communications, and speedy backplotting. - Sorry, couldn't help it. LOL Good luck.

 

Side note - we are often asked why CIMCO doesn't have a "Verification Tool". The answer is simple. It takes a lot of time and effort to create a great verification product - a LOT of time and effort. Both Vericut and Virtual CNC are great products, but even they struggle daily with getting people to invest in their products. Like I said before, why isn't everyone using this stuff?

 

If the time comes when everyone is willing to spend the $5k to $10k on a verification app we will have to take a serious look at offering a "full blown" verification tool. Of course, we would need to convince ourselves that we could do something so much better than the other guys that it makes sense to go down that road.

[Anthony CIMCO]

Opps.

 

quote:

---

If it dog legs and you are unable to check that your plot could look perfect, but in reality your part is going to go slicing through islands, stock, or fixturing - not good and the potential to be a heck of at lot more expensive than the cost of Vericut or Virtual CNC.

---

Meant to say the TOOL is going to go slicing through the islands...

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Thank you Anthony That was a great explaination.

I think what I need is the ability to backplot code as opposed to NCI files. I have sent this file off to my reseller and it's also going to go to QC I think. But I'd like to get a simple graphical representation of what the tool is going to do. This is most likely going to be an intermediate, stopgap step for me, As we only do up to 4 axis work here at the moment and most of that is positional. That's where I can see full blown verification. Right now I think all I need is to see the coded toolpath.

But Keep your thoughts comming please.

[LT_mechead]

Does anyone offer gcode/machine simulation on a service basis?

 

Our shop can't justify buying a verification package yet however, such a thing would be *very* useful on a service basis. If we could purchase a few rounds of verifcation for a job it would allow us to bring more high value work into the shop. Of course it would be not be practical (or even possible) to simulate every permutation of machine tool, but for common makes the simulation engine could be easily amortized. Does anyone offer such a service?