5 Axis simulation advice needed

[Bob W.]

I will be taking delivery of my trunnion table in mid January and I am unsure wether I should buy a simulation package or not. I have never programmed or machined 5 axis parts but I am a quick learner.

 

Am I crazy if I don't go out and get a NC verification package (Vericut, etc...)? If I did get Vericut, how much time would it take to get everything set up? I have ProE so modeling the machine, tooling, and fixtures would not take too long. Any recomendations on which package would work best? I am a one man shop and I am growing fast so time is tight. My primary work is prototyping for the high tech industry.

 

Thanks,

Bob

[Watcher]

Hi Bob,

 

Vericut is the best way to go. But the most expensive too. Fortunately trunnion tables are easy to be set and simulated correctly in the most of verification packages. Since the kinematic models describes an orthogonal machine, it´s up to the post to calculate everything concerning moves.

Machines equipped with nutated axes (DMU70Evo - DMU200P, etc) are by far more complex to be configured in simulation packages since the math and matrices involved with the axis need to be informed to the software. At least I had to do it to get the proper verification in Vericut.

Anyway, you are on luck. You should not have any big trouble to get and starting 5x verification on your shop.

 

There is another software which performs real 5x verification, its name is Predator Virtual CNC. There are a few guys around here which has been using it successfully, although I tried to evaluate it before make my decision over Vericut, but I had no luck getting support.

As a matter of fact, Predator´s tech support/sales never answered my messages. Maybe you´ll better luck than I did.

Being a PRO/E user here, (WF3 M120), I can say that you are right. PRO/E will make easier for you to customize whatever you want, and to make your simulation models more realistic. Most of CAV (Computer Aided Verification) vendors, such as CGTECH (Vericut) and Predator (Predator Virtual CNC) offers machine building services for a fee. If your time is tight and you want to get the job done as soon as possible, I´d suggest you to buy these services, and also to take some classes as soon as you can. Vericut, for instance, it´s by far the best simulation software ever, but it´s highly recommended to learn the tricks about it. Machine and control building are very helpful skills.

 

quote:

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My primary work is prototyping for the high tech industry.

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This is a very promissor market niche for those ones which do believe in being up-to-date with the latest equipment/software. Vericut will also highlight your company name when capability and safety talks. Due to the nature of parts involved, the material and the money, everybody likes to know that your material and time will not end in a trashcan. Vericut, correctly configured, can ensure that it won´t. It worth every penny for your business.

 

 

quote:

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I have never programmed or machined 5 axis parts but I am a quick learner.

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That´s the point. Mastercam it is very powerful in doing 5 axis, and as long as you keep your mind open, the sky is the limit for you. Certainly the learning curve will be short for you.

 

quote:

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and I am unsure wether I should buy a simulation package or not.

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Buy it. After learning how to use it and how to make the programs on the CAM side, you are going to see how many mistakes will be caught and how many times it saved your a$$ (And your pockets ). You won´t regret. Also, you skills and know how you be expanded too, as well as your company name. These days, companies must be able to delivery parts with quality and in time. Vericut will give you the ability to get the job done in the first time. No scraps due to programming errors.

[Walt R]

Predator is a good option for the money. I have used Predator for many years and have always had good results. Just be aware that customer service runs hot and cold. We are looking at Vericut here right now and it looks good. If I where spending my own money I would seriously consider Predator, but go in knowing that I may or may not get as much help as I should expect. If you want to email me I can give you some more info.

 

Walt

[gcode]

Predator is a good product. I bought a copy about 6 years ago and it has served me well.

You will be on your own though as there is no support.

I think the problem is a lack of trained dealers

as they are putting up frequent upgrades and patches on thier website. This is an improvement

from past years.

Vericut is the superior product and its only

limits are how much time and money you are willing to put into it.

[Watcher]

Some interesting readings: (Considering the money involved, these articles worth a reading)

 

Linky

 

Linky

 

Linky

 

HTH

[Stewron]

Bob, don't forget if you had a 5 axis post from Camaix, it links to the 5 axis simulation software already available (free) for Mastercam X2. You would need to model the STL files for the simulation first of course.

 

LINK

 

Not as good as Vericut (doesn't simulate actual G-Code), but better than simulating NCI as it does work from the post processor, and a lot cheaper of course!

 

Cheers, Stew.

[Bob W.]

I am having a hard look at Predator software's machine simulation and I was wondering about maintenance. There seems to be several users on this forum and I would like to know if it is worth the money for maintenance. I have no problem with MCAM maintenance because there are several major upgrades every year. Is this the case with Predator?

[gcode]

Predator is the only software I own that I don't pay maintenance on. I quit paying it because bugs weren't being fixed and there were no upgrades.

They have been putting up regular patches on the

ftp site lately and I've been thinking about getting back on maintenance.

[crazy^millman]

Well Gcode got me into Predator and I think it is a great software for the Money. I have not got it for where I am due to the fact it does not support Mill/Turn machines and since it is my only 5 axis machine I do need it for anything else or would have it here. I trust my 2 axis lathe, 3 axis and 4 axis from Mastercam. My Mill/Turn stuff well lets just say we prove them out very well when they 1st go to the machines.

[chowquoe^]

+1000 Ron, I hear ya on that one.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I use

for my 5-Axis Simulations and Postprocessing.

 

It seriously rocks when used in conjunction with Mastercam. If I completely define my tool/holder, etc... it comes right in. CAMplete is where CAMAIX is moving toward. I can get a full blown machine sim (fixture(s), parts, holders, etc...) going in about 70 seconds. Of course you can only use it if you've got Matsuuras MAM72's, Robodrills w/ 5-Axis, and Mikron 5-Ax Machines) so it may not work for everyone.

[Kyle Waters]

Bob,

Not sure on who you are buying the machine from, but you could push to get the models from the builder. Since you are under the time constraints and all, have you talked to anyone at CGtech? We use it on everything from our MT2000 to balance cycle times/verification to our 5 axis positional work. The support is absolutely second to none. Just make sure you get it all straight to start.

[Mike Whitten CAD/CAM Contractors]

I certainly think that Vericut is the best but it is also very costly. I purchased Predator for my business about 5 months ago. Predator have been very good for me. They now have a full time support person that has helped me alot. If you are doing 5ax simultaneous, Gcode verification and Simulation is a must.

 

Mike

[Tinny]

Its got to be Vericut all the way for me. Its expensive, but when you compare that to the cost of a new trunnion/spindle it puts it into prospective. The support is second to none, they are always accessable and very knowledgable on their own product.

 

Our enquiries to Predator failed to provoke a reply. We looked at that because we only had one Vericut licence and were looking at another more cost effective alternative.

 

We were looking at a Matsuura MAM72 last summer and they were using CAMplete to postprocess/verify my Mastercam NCI files for a trial on a Airbus fuel pipe machined from solid. They struggled quite a bit because the product was still new to them in the UK, and in the end CGtech Vericut came to the rescue.

[Henk]

Any body use NCsimul ??

That's only simulatoin.

Vericut is not only simulation, it can also optimize toolpaths and feeds.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

On advantage with Vericut over CAMplete is that Vericut is actual verification. You put your stock in and it machines it away.

 

With that said, one advantage with CAMplete over Vericut is that each individual MACHINE is unique and CAMplete "knows" that. If you have 3 MAM72-35v's, you'll have 3 different MAM72-35v machine file/definitions and they match each machine (from what Mike @ Methods said).

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Bad Rapid Motion Not Taking Kinematics Into Account

 

Good Rapid Motion Taking Kinematics Into Account (loops for show only for illustrative purposes only)

 

 

CAMplete Interface with a MAM72-35v some sheetmetal removed for visibility of machining envelope...

[Tinny]

We are now looking at the MAM72-35V, following the failure of our Mazak/Erowa robot combo. Can you give me an insight on these machines??

 

We were looking at a MAM72-63V but a MAM 72-35v will do about 2/3rds of our workload, with an inbuilt robot.

[Steve Hattori]

CNC Apps guy, Camplete works on Hermle machines, also. I use it on every program, and its ability to simulate the machine kinematics has been invaluable, as I can pop the solid in there and see exactly how it needs to be positioned to stay inside the axis limits and not hit vises and fixtures, etc. Camplete has been very helpful with customizing the post as well. I do wish it did a full surface-model sim, like vericut does, but they say that's a huge ball of wax they aren't ready to tackle yet. It does show crashes or interference with the part/machine/fixtures, if you have them in there. I have made solids of my vises and jaws to use inside Camplete, so when it does a sim, all the parts are in there to see.

[Watcher]

Hey Bob,

 

Another very efficient simulation solution is ICAM´s Virtual Machine. I´m not sure if the purchasing of CAMPOST it is a must (I don´t think so), but their simulator is very good too.

 

ICAM Virtual Machine

[Watcher]

Looks like Vericut is no longer reigning alone in the market...

 

 

NCSimul

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Tinny,

 

The MAM72 family of machines are excellent pieces of equipment. I just got back from a customer's shop that bought one mid-last year they are ecstatic about it. It repeats within a couple .0001's AND THEY ARE USING ALUMINUM FIXTURES!!! Smooth motion , accuracy, Tailstock with the 35V, it's a tough combo to beat. my only wish is that they made it in a horizontal but... even though they don't it's one of my personal favorites and if it were my check I'd write one for one of these without hesitation... though I think the CUBLEX ma yedge it out just a smidge. A CUBLEX is almost the same machine but it has a 3500 RPM C-Axis for turning.

 

Since I model everything, I just drop that stuff right in there and voila, instant collision detection. I can even give it an envelope too, say I want tools to stay .010" away... I can do that and it will tell me if there are any of those types of violations too. Good stuff.

 

The other thing that CAMplee does that Vericut does not do is Toolpath Velocity optimization which is EXTREMELY handy when doing things like Turbine Blisks and the like, that motion around the leading edges that you normally get, you can clamp or accelerate that to keep it consistent with the rest of the blade giving better and more consistent part finishes.

[Bob W.]

For now I am leaning toward Predator. I have a demo copy and training scheduled for tomorrow. Thanks for all of the input.

 

Bob

[mkd]

MC is a great product. with my grass is greener on the other side thinking, i can't help but conider UG (that does machine simulation and G code verification).

I wonder why the two shops I know that use unigraphics CAM also use Vericut? seem redundant if UG is any good?

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Here's the thing, with regard to that. Vericut DOES verification and ONLY verification. UG, they do CAD, they do CAM, they do CAE, they do FEA, they do PLM, etc... ad infinitum Who would YOU trust.

 

Personally I'd trust Vericut.

 

JM2C