Machine chioces

[67 Yankee]

My shop is looking at buying more machinery and I'd like to get some input.

 

Currently, we have two programmers; one part time who does nothing but program and myself. I program some stuff here and there between general shop problem solving, talking to customers etc.

Machines on the floor:

(1) DMG DMU 60T Speed 5 axis

(1) Haas 5/40TR 5 axis

(2) Haas VF2/SS 3 axis mills

(1) Haas Super mini-mill

(1) Haas G510 Gantry Mill

(1) Haas SL20 with live tooling

(1) Mazak QT20 Lathe (programmed by the operator)

 

Please don't be slammin the Haas machines, we do 90+ percent aluminum work and they are working fine for us. Actually the problem child of all our machines is the DMG :/ Also the Mazak has been a great machine and I love the simplicity and reliability of that lathe.

 

We're probably heading toward another VF2/SS and a VF6/40TR but we've also been thinking a lot about a horizontal machine. What troubles us most about the horizontal is it seems like the setups are far more involved which makes the machine suited only to larger batches of parts, and most of our batches are small. We typically have a lot of 1-12 pc orders, a fair amount of 25-50 pc orders and a rarely some 100+ pcs. Also, some of our most complex pcs are running on 5 axis for positioning only and those are in batches that were 25 pcs, grown to 50 pcs and maybe soon heading for 75 pc+ size batches. These are the parts we are thinking would be the best candidates for a horizontal machine, but we don't have enough of just them to keep a horizontal busy.

 

How do you guys decide when the horizontal machine is the right choice? It seems like I've read things about some people using horizontals for low quantity or even even one piece jobs, but I've been searching around and haven't been able to find that again to see who might be doing that. If we were to get a horizontal machine and it ran maybe 25 of it's capacity on our complex parts, could we just throw a vise on a tombstone and run short jobs exactly as on the vertical machines? If we did do that, would we be able to change part programs by simply rotating the part model and/or changing the WCS?

 

Looking for any pointers or food for thought you guys might have, thanks.

[Guest]

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What troubles us most about the horizontal is it seems like the setups are far more involved which makes the machine suited only to larger batches of parts, and most of our batches are small. We typically have a lot of 1-12 pc orders, a fair amount of 25-50 pc orders and a rarely some 100+ pcs.

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Wrong, wrong, wrong wrong wrong, I can not say wrong enough here.

 

If proper planning is paid to which jobs are going to be run on the horizontal and tooling and fixturing is paid attention to, you can run a 1 piece order MUCH more efficiently than anything vertical other than a dedicated vertical can.

 

If you get a HMC, MAKE sure you get a probe with it, as well as a laser setter for your tools. If you keep a tombstone setup with the fixtures set, you can use the probe to find out not only where the fixture is located but which part you are running and have it call the proper program to create the part, pretty much unattended. There are just soooo many ways a horizontal is much more efficient than anything else.

[JAMES GABEL]

You might want to look at makino. You can't beet the service and the technology that comes with mAkino you can't beet. Horizontal and Vertical, what ever you go with. You would not regret a makino.

[heavychevy2155]

Seeing how you already have Haas machines, the EC-400 is a pretty good buy. It is no Makino for sure, but add some options and their pretty good money makers. The post should be easy to fix and you already know how to use the Haas control. The thing about a horizontal is you can get to three sides of the part in one setup. If that isn't reason enough to go horizontal nothing is.

[Charlie Pierson]

+1000 John et al,

 

I like to set my tombstones up like a 4+ sided locating plate, w/ a common grid setup for locating pins and hold down screws. The part fixturing would then attach to the tstone faces.

After the first run of a job, (if the tstone is still centered and not out of rotation), the next run of that job is simply attaching the plates and letting it rip.

 

cp

[Rick Henrickson The Boeing Co.]

John is so right Wrong, horizontals have had this wrap for so long and I think that they are a way for us to be competitive on a world market!

 

horizontals are great for large lots ok, but they are just as good for low volume hi mix.

 

so many times the setup is nothing more then clamping the material and going you know where center rotation is and all your workholding will be based from there make good setup docs where to clamp material and let it rip

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...What troubles us most about the horizontal is it seems like the setups are far more involved which makes the machine suited only to larger batches of parts, and most of our batches are small...

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I am judt going to add to John's WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!!

 

If workholding and tooling is considered/planned properly, you setup stimes should be almost nil after the first few jobs.

 

quote:

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...so many times the setup is nothing more then clamping the material and going you know where center rotation is and all your workholding will be based from there make good setup docs where to clamp material and let it rip...

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+1,000,000,000

[MACHINEMASTERG]

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Please don't be slammin the Haas machines

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see you took there fun away and you got intelligent answers ....the horizonal is our next move were a low volume high mix shop and weve been using our rotary almost always to get to more sides of the parts ...ours will probubly be a haas ....

[67 Yankee]

I contacted my Makino rep in Dallas and he was asking the same old questions about how many thousands of parts per setup we plan to run. With that in mind, I'm not very hopeful about learning the fine points about this type of strategy from him. Have you guys got any pointers that may help steer my sales rep in the right direction for support? Know of any way I can get my shop into this mode of operation?

 

I understand what you're saying about being able to reach multiple sides of a part in one setup (Left side/front/right side of the tombstone and degrees of rotation of needed) and I also see what a great advantage it would be to have 60 tools on the machine since I could set up 40 tools that would do 95 percent of my work and just load up the odd tool here and there as needed.

 

There are some things that aren't connecting for me though, maybe related to how the probing works, how the fixturing is initially established or possibly a lot of things I haven't considered. Where can I get the information to fill those gaps to get on the road to successful implementation of this type of system?

 

I'm also concerned that this may require more programming support than I currently have available (see first post). Is there much more work involved in the planning of the short run horizontal setup, or it it mostly a matter of being well organized?

 

By the way, one of our main parts that has us interested in the horizontal has a length of 21 inches and a bore running perpendicular to the long axis of the part. That way I see it and please correct me if I'm wrong, we would like to mount the part with the 21" length vertical so we can bore from the left or right tombstone face. If we do that, then we would need the EC-630 to get that capacity from Haas, or a Makino A61. Looks like the Makino machine price is only 10-15% more than the Haas in this case!

 

Thanks again guys...

[Rick Henrickson The Boeing Co.]

If it is only 10% to 15% more Makino all the way the place I use to work and still help from time to time has A61's "CELL" and 71's

 

Love them the cell controller is good also TOYODA is great to.

 

you are right you need to be organized, plan your attack Y tombs, Pancake toms, Plus Tombs. get more then 60 tools trust me.

 

I would be glad to help.

 

I would like to see this country back on top of the manufacturing world and the only way is for all of us to be more effecient and use the technology to our advantage!

[GVM]

I always read on this forum and others how people have problems with DMG machines. I wonder how this is possible. I have owned several DMG machines over the years dating back to 1985 (actual just Deckel back then). I am a one man shop and currently have two DMG machines. It is very rare that I've needed a service tech to visit me and I can only think of one time in the last three years. I have called a few times and been walked thru correcting what was minor problems caused by my negligence and it's been relatively painless. So have I just been lucky?

[67 Yankee]

The price thing is sort of a freak since Haas makes a big jump in capacity from 20" directly to 33" and Makino makes several smaller steps. The base price difference in the machines is only about 12 percent and may even get significantly CLOSER since Haas has their fixed prices and the Makino rep said there is wiggle room even without me asking.

 

I really appreciate all of your guidance and willingness to share some of your experience. Rick, can you possibly shoot me some links for some of those tombstone configurations? I've seen the stuff on the Tombstone City website, but the ones you mention don't seem to be there.

 

Also from CAM-mando's "Makino A51" thread, I saw the techni-grip system mentioned and checked it out. Looks like a sweet system especially well suited to working three sides of a part. I'll be checking further into that as well.

[67 Yankee]

GVM, I don't know if you've been lucky or if we got a dog, but I sure don't want another one of these machines. We've replaced the spindle $$chiller and the $$$spindle both out of warranty. Also the machine will sometimes drop a tool or botch a tool change causing us to have to go into the help screen to close the tool changer door etc. Also sometimes the machine will alarm out for a bad circle endpoint or some other crazy thing on a program that runs fine many times before, and after the alarm is cleared. It has also a few times been unable to traverse the axes at startup causing me to have to go into the help screen and jog jog jog to get it back on the other side of a limit switch or something until it decides it's ok. It does great work and it's very fast, but it's so tempermental I'm sort of sorry we bought that machine.

[Colin Gilchrist]

Once you take the plunge and decide to get a horizontal, the best move you could make would be to get some hands-on training on a similar machine.

 

When it comes to picking a tombstone configuration, there are several options. You can buy pre-designed and machined tombs, or you can buy "semi-finished" tombs and complete the final machining on your horizontal.

 

Personally, the latter route is the way I would go. You get to mount the tomb on your pallet table, and finish machine each face, then drill and tap or ream your location/hold down holes.

 

This way you know the tomb is plumb and square, and each face is a constant distance from the center of roation. Knowing/establishing the distance from the gage point on the spindle to the face of the tombstone is critical.

 

I know of many shops and programmers that refuse to follow this methodology, and get burnt as a result.

 

Once you know the correct numbers, it removes the pain from setting your work offsets and making simultaneous 4 axis cuts (where X,Y,Z, and B move at the same time).

 

The only hard part of using a horizontal is taking the time to build and plan your tooling properly. Once you do that programming a single part program, or a program to cut thousands of parts is really no different...

[MotorCityMinion]

Nosserov, I would look at some of the available tombstone designs out there, then make it yourself as a first project for the horizontal.

 

As for the one off parts, some good examples are large castings such as engine blocks, trans housings, pumps, you name it. I worked in a shop where 90% of the horizontals were doing this type of work. One main advantage in this scenario would be number of tools in the magazine and a multi pallet changer which helps to keep one part in the oven at all times and allows you to leave multiple jobs set-up at the same time. Got a night shift? Have the nubs run the simple work while the other shift runs the more detailed work.

[67 Yankee]

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Once you take the plunge and decide to get a horizontal, the best move you could make would be to get some hands-on training on a similar machine.

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This could be a bit of a problem if my machine dealer isn't up on this method of operation and the two guys here at our shop with horizontal experience have only been involved with those machines doing large quantity setups. Unless I quit my job and come to work with one of you guys I don't know where I'm going to find this training. Any suggestions there?

 

My Makino rep is going to a machine tool show in Houston tomorrow and Thursday and I've been thinking of going to check that out. Have any of you guys learned much about new methods or systems from attending shows like this?

 

Points taken about the larger number of tools and finishing tombstones in place on the machine. Any links for good tombstone suppliers would be appreciated as well.

 

I think I see how this can be set up basically as a string of jobs lined up to go into the machine where the job could be the same part several times in a row or could be a few of this, one of that, then a few more of this, one of those etc as parts are ready to run. Is that something like what we're looking at? If so, that brings me to the probe and program call function. I assumed you had to know what the probe was going to check and have a program to move the probe to those places to check their locations, but I don't see how that could work if the probe is starting with an unknown. Are there any good books available that I could learn from in addition to the guidance you guys are offering? Anyone know for a fact if my Dallas Makino rep is up on any of this stuff and able to help implement a system?

 

As always, thanks.

[MotorCityMinion]

We used several approaches, one piece runs, one part at a time with multiple parts, multiple parts on a tombstone, all faces tooled up and holding parts. Pneumatic fixturing. Tombstones with a top plate. Angle plates where the gussets are machined to hold parts. This is where the Horizontals start to shine. Never used a probe either and it still worked good. Program calling, well that's a matter of having a operator that can read numbers and letters and can use the keypad. Sub programs get a good work out in these scenarios. Nobody here has mentioned compound angles yet? Horizontals truly are the next logical progression in a growth oriented shop.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...I contacted my Makino rep in Dallas and he was asking the same old questions about how many thousands of parts per setup...

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Tell him to get a clue and that you want to talk to someone knowledgeable in versatile setups and short run/single run streategies for HMC's. That should get his attention and if it does not, look elsewhere. If he's not going to listen to your needs and questions, he's got no business getting your business.

 

With regard to probing... in the past, I have created features on tombstones/fixture plates (same place every tobstone/fixture) that when measured determines what program to run that way the wrong program never gets run. I know of companies that "install" gage blocks to accomplish the same thing.

 

Biggest thing to remember is you have to think outside the box AND as always, eMastercam is a great resource for help.

[Jerosu]

I think I've seen two orders over 25 pcs in the last month or so for our horizontals.

[67 Yankee]

CNC Apps Guy, you really simplified one part of the puzzle for me. I thought we were basically going to be probing around in the dark to see what's there before choosing a program. Now I see that it could be as simple as using a .250 block to call program #250. Mount the block in the same location for each tombstone face or pallet, probe one or two points to identify the part and automatically call it up and run from there. Good stuff!

 

I see I'm going to have to tighten up my programming. Probably half of the programs we produce don't run successfully on the first shot. I've only ever worked in one other shop in my life and their programs usually needed work too. Same goes for anyone I've talked to who has done CNC programming, though I admit I haven't talked to many other programmers.

 

I get the impression that you guys are posting programs that run fine pretty much every time on the first shot. Is that true? What percentage of your programs would you say are just fine on the first part?

[Rick Henrickson The Boeing Co.]

That is why it is so important to get the post dialed in you should be able to post and go and like we were talking earlier you have to have everything modeled, tombstones, vices, technigrips, inverta bolts, patterns on the tomb. the tombs we built I probed everyone after rough and finish through for rotations to make sure they were exactly like I modeled them.

Planning up front will get your programs right the first time of course I cant say one of the tools wont break.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

You should only need feed/speed mods right out of the gates AT THE MOST. Once you program enough parts on your setups, you may not even need that.

 

Dialed posts are a HUGE part of the equasion. IF you don't have that, you don't have a stable enough process. Setup guys should have a pad of paper, run the part through once, make speed/feed adustment notes, take it back to you, you make the adjustments in Mastercam, post and run. Unless of course you only have 1 part to run, then your setup guys should still take notes so that you can better understand the true cutting conditions and change your programming accordingly.

 

HTH and JM2C

[Rick Henrickson The Boeing Co.]

+ 1000000000 James that is what we use to do at the last place, we recorded everything spindle load tool life we had a pretty solid process

 

Here no one really cares

[MotorCityMinion]

8 months of Mastercam, over 90% of my programs run good right out of the gate. The remainder usually require tweaking of some type for irregular tool shapes, or feeds and speeds related to excessive tool length/ low rigidity in set-up. Yes, there's the occasional programmer error. Anybody in here who says they get it right 100% of the time, is long overdue a visit from Murphy's law enforcement crew.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...Anybody in here who says they get it right 100% of the time, is long overdue a visit from Murphy's law enforcement crew...

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Amen to dat brudduh!

 

Never let your guard down. Create a stable process, rigid setups when at all possible, quality tooling, dialed post processors, stable machining parameters and you'll be well on your way to getting things where you expect them to be right out of the gate.