Makino questions

[Thee Dragracer1951]

We're still shopping a horiz.

Looked at a couple of Makinos. A81M

We are looking at expanding our market share in hard to machine materials. I had thought 500mm machine but a 630 really is starting to make sense. Got a quote yesterday...

Sticker shock...

almost $700k.

full 4th, 1000psi through, conveyers, memory, 137 tools, broken tool sensor ($15k!!!), TLO probe ($17k!!!), spindle probe for $15k, I thought charging $1200 for helical interpretation on a $450k machine a little odd...

They tell me a pallet pool is $250 to $350k....

Am I nutz (don't answer that...) or is this a tiny bit high?

[Slixmix]

Check out a Mori NH6300 DCG. Really nice machines.

[Rick Henrickson 65]

Jim come on over to the main land and head up to Global to check out their Makino cell I can get you a tour then you won't be asking, that is a great cell!

Accra has a new Makino cell to with 5 axis

[Tim Johnson]

We paid around 6K for broken tool detection (BK) & around 8K? for a tool laser setter (Renishaw) on our Enshu hmcs. I'm not sure what they listed for. Yeah they sound high but you should be able bicker the price down a nice chunk.

[Dave Ball]

We have an a81 due to be delivered in Oct. It has a 12 pallet MMS, 1000psi coolant, 300 tools, 2 spindle probes, broken tool detection.....etc. and to answer your question Jim...it's a Makino.

They are the tops in horizontals and their prices reflect that. I don't see anything extremely out of line on the prices you have mentioned.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Rick

Yes they are VERY nice machines. We saw a couple cells at Primus and another shop in Auburn. Just down the street from Primus. I just wasn't expecting a 3/4 million dollars.

I think I can get these guys to sharpen their pencils and I have to look long and hard at the ROI

We're also supposed to look at a couple of Mori's

Vince Selway also called to talkk to us about a Matsuura and a Toyoda.

[Rick Henrickson 65]

I would look at toyoda for sure the matsuura I have not been to happy with long lead on cell and they were breaking down alot Universal has a matsuura cell and you could talk to them and see what they think.

 

The only problem is selway

[Colin Gilchrist]

Jim,

 

Along with the actual machine, you are going to need to invest some money in a tool balancer and a tool pre-setter.

 

I was looking for you at the forum, but I didn't see you.

 

Makinos are expensive, but sometimes you get what you pay for. I'd be happy to take a look at the list of equipment you are considering and give you my opinion.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Colin

I was intending to be at the forum but got lost in what day it was...

That happens around here.

I am starting to realize Makino's are expensive. I also know we will need a presetter and I don't think I'm going to need a balancer as this is an 8K rpm machine

I can get you the specs.

[Colin Gilchrist]

Hey man, I totally understand. I get buried in work too on occasion.

 

Balancing is one of the most overlooked aspects of manufacturing today. Even a machine that only has 6k RPM will cut better and the spindle will last longer with balanced tools.

 

Why only 8k RPM? Even hard metals can be cut at high RPM with the right tools...

 

I would seriously look at a spindle that has at least 12-15k capability.

 

This will also really help when you go for lights out manufacturing. Making faster, lighter cuts will help with process reliability and help you plan your tools and your toolpaths accordingly.

[Kevangel]

A couple of months ago I saw 3 makino A55 horizontals tied together with a 18 pallet MMC (looked like a railroad track to me, a toolmaker). Was used; 1995 and they had a video of it running. Sold for 158K.

[Dave Ball]

Jim, I had the opportunity to run the very a81m that Makino took to IMTS 2006, just a month before the show they let me use it for a week at their facility hoping it would get us to buy one. The a81m is a beast, you will not want for more torque out of a spindle, talk about ba!!z.

[Mic]

Why not have a look at the Makino A88E. The capital A series are faster and more rigid than the normal a machines.

 

A88E with a 18k HSK-A100 spindle and twin drives in Y and Z is a nice machine.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

I'm not against balancing tools Colin, I was just under the impression that it wasn't required under 10k or so. The 8K thing is that we want to market this machine strictly at hard, difficult to machine materials. That's the spindle that comes on it.

[CAM-mando]

I just went to look at a demo for the smaller Makino A51.

 

There were two options for broken tool detection. One detetects within 3/8" or so. The other is very precise and can detect less than .005".

 

Also an interesting little rumor... I heard the lead design engineer left Makino and went to Mori a couple years ago.

 

That helical thing is Fanuc still being ... well Fanuc.

[Rick Henrickson 65]

You realy only need the tool breakage behind the door you should / will be presetting anyway.

 

the one behind the door does have tool limitations though.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Yea. I hears the same thing about the new DCG Moris being touted as designed by the head Makino guy. I also know of at lease three shops locally that had DCG Mories that have moved to Makinos

Things that make ya go Hmmmm...

[Rick Henrickson 65]

Jim so many big shops in our area have shifted to makino from horizontals through Mags the mags are amazing to

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Well. I don't know if I can pull a three quarter million dollar machine. That's a big bite...

I'm still looking at a couple of other machines. But there IS the fact that a Makino WILL draw business.

Jeebers the pros and cons can make ya crazy.

[Guest]

Makino's SU*K

 

Buy a HAAS

 

 

Sorry I just COULD NOT help mehself

[Guest]

JIM,

thro me an e-mail some time if you arent too overloaded with info. I used to work for Primus and saw first hand what those machines are like and have also ran matsuura, mori, toyoda and okuma hors.

dont want to throw reterect in the forum but i have important recent info on one of the above for you.

 

doug

[MACHINEMASTERG]

+1

[?Mark]

quote:

---

I don't know if I can pull a three quarter million dollar machine. That's a big bite...

---

There is "wants", "needs" and what we can afford...

Don't let yourself be talked into something that will get you in trouble.

Being a successful businessman you already know the value of a dollar and you're well aware that you'll be some 100k poorer before this 750k machine will make you a first buck...

 

Look at the used market. It's a buyers place. Pick a machine, fly a good tech over there to run a ball bar tests and check it out thoroughly.

You can save hundreds of thousands that way...

 

jm2c

[Thee Dragracer1951]

you got mail...

[Dave Ball]

quote:

---

Also an interesting little rumor... I heard the lead design engineer left Makino and went to Mori a couple years ago.

---

Yep thats what I heard too....and the rest of the story is....he basically swapped places with the lead guy at Mori, who now works for Makino!

But I'm not one to spread gossip