zero operator intervention

[Richie21]

I know of a company that tried sero operator intervention and is presently going belly-up, losing all their work due to poor workmanship. Officially, poor maintenace of machines is blamed. But then, this was always the case and they made good parts anyway, due to opertor skill and immediate supervisor know-how.

 

Immediate supervisors got laid off and operators were told to "go by the book 100% and not do your own thing, otherwise we (in the office) lose control".

 

result: company sales dropped 50% in a year or so.

Too much scrapp and a ruined reputation as a reliable parts supplier. Obviously, someone mis-interpreted the message: sero operator intervention is desirable.

 

Just where is one to draw the lines ???

[Rekd™]

Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by Zero Operator Intervention??

 

'Rekd

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Zero Operator Intervention - In a nutshell, Automation takes contol of manufacture. For example VMC's (for the most part) require a great degree of operator effort and "intervention". In our facility, the scrap rate from our parts that are run on VMC's is in the double digits. Scrap rate in our HMC's fluxuates between 2-5%. Root causes for scrap on the HMC's are broken tools. We're going to implement tool breakage detection before and after every tool runs and Probing of critical dimensions. This should lower the scrap rate a bit. Root causes for such a high scrap rate from the VMC's are part(s) mis-loading, failure to inspect, failure to follow instructions, failure to understand directions, part damage from de-burring, etc...

 

Implemented properly, companies can be extremely successful utilizing "Lights out" technology. Probing, Tool Breakage Detection, Tool Life Management, HMC Cells can all contrubute greatly to a company's bottom line. More than likely the cause of the company fall mentioned above was due to improper implementation, lack of understanding with regards to the technology involved and lack of training.

 

JM2C

[Richie21]

We're going to implement tool breakage detection before and after every tool runs and Probing of critical dimensions. This should lower the scrap rate a bit. Root causes for such a high scrap rate from the VMC's are part(s) mis-loading, failure to inspect, failure to follow instructions, failure to understand directions, part damage from de-burring, etc...

 

Implemented properly, companies can be extremely successful utilizing "Lights out" technology. Probing, Tool Breakage Detection, Tool Life Management, HMC Cells can all contrubute greatly to a company's bottom line. More than likely the cause of the company fall mentioned above was due to improper implementation, lack of understanding with regards to the technology involved and lack of training.

 

>>>>>>>>>>

 

I am in full agrement with all the above as to cause - effect relationship. On the surface of it. The company mentioned above, no doubt, is an extreme example of ignorance and stupidity, and top managemet neglect as to personal management. So we set this aside.

 

I have been an operator most of my life, but have seen the situation from both sides. I am a great enthusiast of lights out technology and idiot-proving the manufacturing processes, even for myself, so I don't have to think about what I am doing.

 

But there is a limit to this: otherwise there would only exist one-person production facilities.

 

Where the operator is needed, he should be given full responsibility, including decision making power ( and the respect that goes with it). Those people, most of all supervisors, that don't want to participate on that level of responsibility, should be put in the background or removed.

 

In other words, let the leadman on the floor decide what needs changing, and do what he says regardless of office-personal misconceptions. Because that is where things are going wrong, and the hirarchy works against the owners best interests.

 

I was foreing born, and like one other foreigner said: "it is amazing how this country can work with stupid people". Meaning, low-level employees are all assumed to be stupid, don't need training, don't get training, and so on .... There is some truth to this observation.

 

In the meantime, we categorize low-level employed and knowledgable Americans right along with the "stupid" people, as a matter of convenience, when they have a different opinion about production processes. Lets take cutter breakage:

 

After the office peole have exhausted their recources, hand the responsiblity to the leadman and let him make decisions and make program changes and proceedural changes in accordancw with his wishes even if you "already know better".

 

The point is: people on the floor "know best" more often than not. And they are not even given a chance. I have personally witnessed simple opportunity losses ranging in the ten-thousand dollar category week after week.

 

I talked to another worker from another company and he said they screwed up 5000 parts due to induction soldering. People in the office interfere with the shop floor and the result is scrap.

 

There is no such thing as a bad soldier, there are only bad officers.

 

Rich

[Brendan P]

I have been in this racket since 1984 and if there is 1 thing I have learned,it is that you can't ever "idiot proof" anything!

 

[Tony]

Anything critical,Robots and cameras,

Why take a chance.

Nobody will stand for a single defect with are

Cars, Computers or appliances program's.

Robots load the EDM sinkers now!

At breakfast this morning a BP engineer told me

It's not about smaller and faster anymore.

Its the next Logic break through.

"It could get really scary"... huh?

[McRae]

quote:

---

I have been in this racket since 1984 and if there is 1 thing I have learned,it is that you can't ever "idiot proof" anything!

---

I agree - No matter how hard you try to error proof something, there will always be some one more inept than you are and find a way to bung it up... These are the guys that get promoted to keep them from doing too much damage!

[Oppiz]

quote:

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The point is: people on the floor "know best" more often than not. And they are not even given a chance.

---

I can't agree with this more. Being in this trade 25 years half of that time on the floor. A lot a time is wasted with studies and data collection. when all that needed to done was to ask the person doing the task.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Yes I fully agree. You cannot idot proof anything because there is always a bigger idiot somewhere. Technology implemeted properly, frees people from the drudgework of manufacturing. It all needs to be overseen by those who know. Our whole thing is have a greater degree of control over the process as a whole. Which in turn helps quality, which in turn allows us to operate in a more flexable and profitable manner. One thing too that gets helped is right now with VMC's, if an operator or two is sick, this means the schedule slips. We run a very tight schedule. The machine shop has to have parts machined a minimum of 1 month early, preferably 2. Our product gets shipped to South America by boat, so in order to be on time we need to ship about 18 days before they are due to be there on time. Our customer works more or less in a JIT manner so we have to work on a JIC (Just In Case) manner and this puts a signifigant strain on the process if anything goes wrong. So we're attempting to take as many variables out of the equasion as possible.

[ssibiski]

I do believe you can idiot proof things. I feel the biggest problem is not an increase in stupidity though out humanity but a lack of training. I have worked up through a couple of shops. I can remember being shown how to wrap a pallet even clean a toilet. But now I watch as people who may have never even seen a print let alone understand what the word tolerance means, be place on machines and told put part there and push that button. That is not training!! They are just asking for problems, begging for them.

 

This is not how I was brough up in this industry. And this is not how I work. It may take a bit of time 15 or 20 min. but it is well worth it. I would rather take the extra time to instruct someone on the machine they are going to run and how to check their parts then to let them go at it and take the chance that I may have to rerun them all again.

 

As you might have guessed I have a bit or a pet peev with this. Sorry for the rant.

 

Regards

Steve Sibiski

[EZ3PUTT]

Just when I think that I have made something idiot proof along comes a highly qualified one.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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I would rather take the extra time to instruct someone on the machine they are going to run and how to check their parts then to let them go at it and take the chance that I may have to rerun them all again.

---

I would rather that happen as well. Too bad the Shop Supervisor doesn't see the value in training.

[Brendan P]

I would probably agree with you ssibiski if

we were training monkeys to run machines,clean

toilets,wrap pallets, ect.

Then maybe i would feel confdent in saying that

you "can idiot proof" something!

But until then..........

[Slick]

Idiot Proofing Lesson #1:

 

- Don't hire idiots. i.e. Don't let an idiot be responsible for running a $300,000.00 Machine

 

Idiot Proofing Lesson #2:

 

- Don't let an idiot hire idiots to run $300,000.00 machines

[Toolfab]

Good one slick!!!

 

We call them PHD's "Push Here Dumby", but they don't make anything efficient. Every shop has atleast one PHD. They are beyond training, beyond teaching, and beyond understanding the fundementals of the job. That guy can get paid $10/h because that is what he is worth, and that is the quality of his output. NOTHING will take the place of experienced, knowledgable operators. Because programmers have more to do than babysit every machine and operator. The thought of anyone running a "zero operator" shop deserves to go out of buisness, because they don't understand what it takes to be in buisness in the first place! IMHO

 

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...The thought of anyone running a "zero operator" shop deserves to go out of buisness...

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Well, I guess then that we'll have to be paying more for everything. One sure way to keep expenses under control is to automate. Plain and simple. Now, the degree of automation needed shoudl be taken on a case by case basis.

[Toolfab]

James,

It depends on the product I suppose. I come from a job shop backround were all we do is 1-10 piece orders of custom cutting tools. We machine and grind here, and we've been asked why when a job repeats it still takes so much setup time. As you know there are so many variables in producing product's. i.e. tool wear, tool lengths, wheel wear, if it is late on a fri. That is what I mean about not being able to ever achieve zero operator intervention. That phrase in itself to me is hard comprehend.

[Scott Bond]

This is what I do, you guys can what you want.

 

The "Zero operator intervention" option is driven

by a part(project) by part(project) bases only.

Sometimes I need a guy to watch every move, and record notes of what he changes or needs to have changed.

sometimes the machine needs no one on the first part except to run the first part with the optional stop on ,so a operator can simply check for tool lengths being correct,or a cutter comp type alteration, then hit the cycle start button and go back to checking coolant, and oil levels, also prepare the set up on the next machine.

Sometimes I program a part and I set it up personally, and let it run for a day or two, un-manned. On this brand of project I will not pay a guy to watch the robot make the part.I am running a four of these larger unmanned projects

with myself and 1 helper to change parts.I am Happy

 

[ 01-27-2003, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bond ]

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

See, we make our own stuff here. Generally high quantities so this type of setup makes sense. Job shops that run low qualtities does not necessitate this degree of automation. Though Tool Breakage detection makes sense on almose everything IMHO.

[MACHINEMASTERG]

the way we idiot proof our jobs was to get rid of all the IDIOTS !!! now we have nothing but know it alls!!!! i just know all of some of the stuff and some of all of the stuff

[kathy]

The Machinists that run the CNC's and myself are in a partnership!! I give them a good clean program setup up the way they want to run it, and they are responsible for the tooling.

We are both responsible for making good parts.

 

Kathy

ps: we a job shop too! onsies and twosies of everything...