O/T One tin soldier - rides away!

[Jerry Bichsel]

I just couldn't stay silent on this one.

 

Having served as a tank gunner and commander from 1980-1986 in Korea, Germany and Ft. Hood, Texas, I have a bit of insight. There is a lot that goes on in the Korean penninsula that NEVER gets reported here. Remember the assassination squad sent from N. Korea into S. Korea to kill the S. Korean president in '83?

 

I have watched the N. Korean force across the Im Jin River.

 

I also had a friend that was more like a brother to me that was killed in the Gulf War in '91. One of the unfortunate few. SFC Harold P. Witzke III.

 

For those who think we are rushing in without "crossing the t's and dotting the i's", just look at what information is coming to light.

 

Whose word do you take, our governments or Iraq's which has been proven to be lying over and over again.

 

What about the U.N. inspectors report from 1998 that listed 19,500 tons of VX nerve agent and the December 2002 Iraq declaration that "reports" 13,000 tons destryed. What about the other 6,500 tons (13,000,000 pounds)?

 

What about a regime that has had four plus years WITHOUT inspectors to hide and develope further nasty secrets?

 

All this "smoking gun" talk is idiocy. For those of you not familiar with firearms, a gun does not smoke until AFTER it has been fired. Then it could be too late for whoever is on the receiving end.

 

I do not advocate nuking the entire country unless we are attacked in that manner or have irrefutable evidence that we would be nuked, biologically or chemically attacked.

 

I do not believe that our government is perfect but I do believe it is by far the best and most benevolent on the planet.

 

And for those in other countries that don't believe so, check your own government's coffers. Look at the deposits made by America. Check out our foreign aid totals.

 

God bless our armed services and damn the liberals who stand in our way.

[Jerry Bichsel]

Jack,

 

You throw out some interesting items regarding an Iraqi woman with a gun over her head vowing to fight for her country.

 

Ever met an Iraqi that lived under Saddam and now lives here? Ever talked with anyone about how people in Iraq are FORCED AT GUNPOINT to show "loyalty"? Ever had an Iraqi tell you how family members are tortured and killed if you don't march in the "patriotic rally"? How school children are beaten if the don't shout loud enough in support of Saddam?

 

Just because we are free to voice our opinions, pro or con, does not mean everyone everywhere enjoys the same liberty.

[jadaro]

Hahaha! I find this thread Humorous!

 

Its a funny thing,

I had a discusion with my father at one point,

He said that things usually don't change unless they HAVE to change, and no sooner.

 

Its odd to actually see The US government stand up and say somethinglike this about Iraq- premtive behavior.

 

I feel that my govenrment is looking out for us.

BUT I will NEVER stop quiestioning thiet true motives, afterall, this is a government for the people, by the people.

 

PS. I very much like those lyrics, its quite an allusion to everyday irony that we see.

 

[ 02-12-2003, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: jadaro ]

[KJS]

I dont' proclaim to be an expert on world affairs but one thing I can tell you all is that as far as looking for a smoking gun goes, a gun can't smoke unless it has been fired. So it seems logical to prevent the gun from being fired in the first place.

[Mark Lovelace]

I’ve been watching this dialogue for a while, and while I agree that Saddam Hussein must be removed from power, I don’t agree that the US has any mandate to do it unilaterally, nor do I believe that war is the best way to go about it. Certainly, Iraq is less of a threat to the US than it is to Europe, and we should stand shoulder to shoulder with our allies in formulating a cohesive, multi-lateral approach to resolving the situation. We must not ignore the wishes of the world by dispensing cowboy justice.

 

Whose authority says that we are the ‘World Police’? Obviously, the rest of the world does not see us as such. Rather, they see us as judge, jury, and executioner, and that is the root of the current US-Europe rift.

 

How can we be the World Police when we are also the world’s number one weapons supplier? The US has more weapons of mass destruction than all other nations combined. Our defense budget, in a lean year, is more than all other nations combined. Meanwhile, we give a smaller percemtage of our GNP to the world in humanitarian aid than any other ‘first-world’ nation. Remember also that the reason we know Iraq has chemical and biological weapons is that we hold the receipts.

 

How can we be the World Police if we have removed ourself from the World Court? If we have removed ourselves from the START treaty? If we have refused to sign a ban on land mines? And how can we be the World Police when we have consistently sabotaged any meaningful international treaty against genocide?

 

How can we be the World Police if we chant ‘Screw the United Nations”? As long as the US behaves as if it is not answerable to the rest of the world, we will continue to lose moral credibility, and slide further into isolation and ostracization. Like a powerful King whose people despise him, we are the ones who are in danger of becoming ‘irrelevent’ to the rest of the world. If we mistake power for a mandate, I fear that we may become the very ‘tyrant who takes over the world’ that some here decry.

 

War can never defeat terrorism. It has never worked in any country in the world. And the oxymoronic ‘pre-emptive war’ can never prevent war, because it is war. In truth, terrorism and war are simply two names for the same thing. Terror is simply the warfare of the have-nots. To civilians in Iraq, this war will be terrorism. The root causes of terrorism are economic domination and cultural marginalization. Until the US addresses these issues, terrorism will never go away. Does any one here really believe that a unilateral war on Iraq will discourage terrorism? Please, please, show me how this policy has worked for Israel.

 

I am tired of the overused ‘smoking gun’ metaphor which, by logical extension, gives any nation total justification for attacking any other nation. If we are considering putting the lives of hundreds of thousands of US troops in harms way, I think we owe them more than just a sound bite for the evening news. I, personally, was never in the service. Neither did I dodge the draft. But I have many friends who are members of a growing movement called ‘Veterans for Peace’. Many of them have been permanently scarred by their experiences in Vietnam; from having to kill, and from watching others be killed around them. They urge people to support our troops in the most real way possible: by not sending them off to war unneccessarily.

 

As for those of you who have turned this into an anti-Clinton diatribe, I ask you some simple questions: How is America any better off today than it was 2, 4, or 8 years ago? Is the economy better? Do you have more freedoms? Do you live with less fear? Aside from childish, unsubstantiated Clinton bashing, what can you point to to say that the US, or the World, is a better place now?

 

And, please, don’t parrot Rush Limbaugh’s laughable claims of a ‘liberal media.’ Over 90% of so-called ‘experts’ consulted by TV sources are conservatives. Likewise, virtually ALL syndicated radio talk show hosts identify themselves as conservatives. And what part of the networks’ 24/7 coverage of the Monica Lewinski scandle demonstrated a pro-Clinton bias? In truth, the very few ‘Liberals’ that make it on to TV are much more accurately defined as moderates. Please, name for me one true progressive voice that gets any air-time. Please, show me one shred of evidence, other than empty rhetoric, that there is not, in fact, a strong conservative bias to the mainstream media. Oh yeah, and please tell me how GW Bush or Dan Quayle are any less guilty of draft dodging than Clinton.

 

By the way, Time’s ‘Man of the Year’ title has always gone to the person who had the greatest impact on the world, for good or bad. It has never been an endorsement of greatness. This year, it could be a three-way tie.

 

[ 02-13-2003, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Mark Lovelace ]

[Jack Mitchell]

Mark,

 

I ran a profile check immediately after reading your response. Actually, I ran the check after the first paragraph. – Nothing too out of the ordinary, just another member much like myself, the difference being that I perceive this a very passionate individual, perhaps more so than myself.

 

How is it that you have waited this long to respond? Also, how is it that you are so articulate and yet so condemning at the same time? – No slight intended.

 

Although I do not necessarily agree with all points of your argument – I must admit that I do agree with the majority of these.

 

You have an amazing analytical ability - in my own opinion; I am born in the USA as well as you (implied) and yet I do indeed have a passion differing than that of many Americans; the flight jacket that Bush wore on this very day shows to me the gullibility of the public to buy into the talkity talk – Your response has risen above this to me; I am not looking for a bash, I am just stating an agreeable stance - nothing more!

 

I very much look forward to your debate on this subject in the future.

 

Thank you for being yourself and expressing your thoughts on our forum.

 

Regards, Jack

 

[ 02-13-2003, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Jack Mitchell ]

[Jack Mitchell]

I have just read Mark's post for the fifth time.

 

All I can say is WOW!

 

Chime in guy's, my prediction is that Bush attackes on Monday or perhaps a week on Monday.

 

Regards, Jack

[Brendan P]

Come on Jack......

There is no doubt that Saddam posesses these

types of weapons.They didn't just dissappear!

How about all the times that Saddam "threw out"

the inspectors.

The only difference now is that back then,he

didn't have them hidden,so of course he didn't

want them there.Then we (America) are stupid enough to give him 3 months to "go and hide them

all" before we start to play hide and seek!

 

I really feel sorry for the people of Iraq,for

they really have no choice but to put up with his

crap.

I would like to know how many of them actually

hope that we go in,in hopes of liberation.

 

Saddam is a menace to the world,and it would be

nice if there was an easy way to get rid of him,

without killing innocent people.

As far as this country goes on "fighting" terrorism,I saddly believe it will take a lot more deaths of innocent americans for them to really mean business!

When you have a guy like the SHOE BOMBER and he

gets convicted, and they do not execute him by a

single bullet to the head in the face of the public (and I am sure that many would pay to see this)then we my friend do not mean business!

 

I have seen the documentary on MSNBC of those

poor kurds that got gassed from saddam ,men,

woman,children,animals,all dead in the

streets......

How can anyone let this guy be in power?

In one breath Saddam is telling us that he has no weapons,in the other breath he is telling his

top guys that if necessary,use the chemicals

and biologicals on us!

How can this be??

 

[Scott Bond]

quote:

---

unsubstantiated Clinton bashing

---

I just don't like Clinton's way.

Look guys ,I remain unimpressed with a U.S.A. leader that dosn't have enough integrety not to cheat on his wife. And -who- was minding the store for the last several years while the Enron,s were covered up like an ugly women wearing pancake make-up.

 

I do not agree with everything going on wright now myself.

BUT Untill then

I have two brothers, and two sisters.

Between them they have four sons.

They are all on the boats right now.

I will support them.

 

IMHO

Everyone can do as they please...

But as for me;;;;;; since the day of 911

I am an American,don't tread on me.

[Julie's_Man]

Here we go again...

Does anybody get it...Try to see the big picture!

The muslim religion cannot find peace for the world unless all are converted. Either by the sword or voluntarily, all must bow before Allah.

Sounds a little like communism. It just doesn't work unless all are communist. Of course we all know, communism just doesn't work. And I have no intentions of bowing before Allah, the moon god. Saddam, Osama, Arab terrorists all serve the same god. And they have plans for all of us who won't bow. Remember, America is called "the great Satan." That's a religious view, wouldn't you say? It's not just about weapons of mass destruction. It's about the survival of FREEDOM. Freedom to believe what you want. Freedom to worship and serve any God you want. The Muslims cannot abide with such freedom!

Will Islam Cause WWIII?

[STEELTHOM62]

quote:

---

Meanwhile, we give a smaller percemtage of our GNP to the world in humanitarian aid than any other ‘first-world’ nation.

---

Nice spin,not saying that this isn't a fact but really,what country on the face of this earth even comes close to handing out the amount of money and aid that we do?

 

quote:

---

The root causes of terrorism are economic domination and cultural marginalization. Until the US addresses these issues, terrorism will never go away.

---

Envy and religious beliefs are the root causes.Our success as a country both economically and militarily as well as the freedom to believe as you wish are what's hated.

 

To oppose what our government does is your right and I respect your opinion, but spare us the twisting of facts.

[KJS]

Mark & Jack,

I'm curious as to know how you feel about Hussein's use of chemical weopons in the Iran-Iraq war and his use of them on his own Kurdish population. By the way his use of these weapons is a documented fact not just something Rush Limbough said last week. Keep in mind that 80% oF the Washington based media votes democratic.

We are world police noy by choice but by necessity. Who else is going to do it?

[A-ron1286490684]

Mark,

 

I don’t think this was about anti-Clinton diatribe. What I want to know is where were all these protestors while Clinton was bombing Kosovo? (or Serbia for that matter, birthplace of two world wars, without unanimous U.N. approval), and were the war protestors out in force then or when Clinton bombed Iraq over a no fly zone violation? It is obvious that political affiliation trandsends core values when it’s their own side oiling the war machine with bloody corpses. I guess the D in parentheses after their name means free pass!

 

And are we better off in California after four years of Grey Davis? www.RecallGrayDavis.com ," Or is that also Bush’s fault? Be consistant man! And your unfounded facts about the so called conservative media couldn’t be further from the truth. A survey of the political afflliations of the Washington press core showed that 92 percent voted Democrat and the fact that the Associated Press won’t touch the latest Enron facts, ($0.00 in taxes paid betwween 1996-1999) dug up by the BBC should tell you that (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/843176/posts)

 

I choose not to get my political advice from Barb Streisand thank you.

[Mark Lovelace]

I appreciate the responses to my comments. I would much rather carry on a dialogue with people who don’t agree with me than with those who do, as none of us learn anything by surrounding ourselves with like-minded individuals (aka 'ditto-heads' ). Besides, there is much that we do agree on. For example, I didn’t vote for Grey Davis, and I would never leave Clinton alone with my mother. However, I think we need to be truthfull in recognizing that the Nation did not exactly fall apart under his leadership (or lack thereof, whichever).

 

My figures regarding media bias come from Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting. Their research is extensively documented. They show that, since 9/11, only 11% of political ‘Think Tanks’ cited as sources by the Big 3 networks were ‘left of center’ or ‘progressive’. In that same time, 87% of US sources consulted were Republicans. I will admit that this is ‘ close to 90%’, rather than ‘ over 90%’ (didn’t have the report in front of me at the time).

 

I have heard mention of the ‘80% Democratic’ accusation before, but I have never been able to find any documentation. If you have a source, I would honestly appreciate it. If that is, in fact, a true figure, then we are left with a dichotomy of individual bias vs. institutional bias. Personally, I would argue that institutional bias is more pervasive, but even if we agree that the two cancel each other out, it pretty much dismisses the ‘liberal media’ argument.

 

I’m not sure where the reference to Barbara Streisand came from. I know that she is an entertainer, and nothing more, just like Rush Limbaugh. It would be unwise to consider either of them a reliable news source.

 

I agree fully that it is our economic and military success that is the root of much of the hatred expressed towards our country. We seek to culturally and economically dominate the world, and we often use the military as a tool in accomplishing this end, under the guise of ‘protecting our vital interests’. I’m not saying that’s good or bad; it’s just the nature of capitalism. But it is up to us to respect that not everyone wants us pushing our culture down their throats. There are certain parts of our culture that I’d rather not have pushed down my own throat, like 'Fear Factor' .

 

As to humanitarian aid, I was not twisting figures. My point is simply that there is an overwhelming disparity in how much the US gives for humanitarian needs vs weapons.

 

I will not argue about the Kosovo conflict, because I didn’t keep myself informed then, and I never figured out exactly how I felt about it. The same goes for Somalia and Rwanda. I would only point out that, in these three cases, there were ongoing conflicts, whereas there is not currently a conflict in Iraq.

 

When there was genocidal conflict in Iraq (the 1983 gassing of the Kurds), Reagan sent Donald Rumsfeld to meet with Saddam Hussein in Baghdad to tell him that the US was ready to establish full diplomatic relations (December 20, 1983). The Reagan administration then removed Iraq from the State Department’s terrorism list, and began supplying Iraq with missile components, military electronics, and chemical and biological weapons components, including anthrax and bubonic plague. The Reagan administration may also have supplied some of the helicopters used in the gassing.

 

I absolutely believe that Iraq has these weapons and should be disarmed. I just don’t think that a situtation that is 20 years old needs to be resolved by starting a unilateral war next week, when there is an international movement to try other measures. Of the options available, war should be the last.

[Webby]

Anyone care to post a link to an alternate political discussion forum?

[A-ron1286490684]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?.../05/ED94740.DTL

 

The source above is from a survey in a book by Bernard Goldberg (it was more around 89 percent) and you can dispute it as much as you like but to me it's so obvious. Like the dropping of the Enron story the first time when it started to lead back to anything but the left's agenda. I cannot for the life of me see anything but a liberal slant and in fact I think youd'e have to "work" at not recognizing it. And do you really believe that CNN's content is being steered in any way by anything right of center? Fox maybe, at times, but that's it, all the rest... -P.C. allllllll the waaaayyyy!

 

I hope war is always a last measure and until the first shot is downrange it might still work out that way. The buildup has had all the production value it could and maybe the "posturing" approach is first on Bush's aggenda to drive this guy out of power. I would like to think that anyway.

 

As far as the country not falling apart under Clinton as you put it, even liberal economists will point out that the Wallstreet ball was in motion long before Bush's policies were able to set in. In fact long before the 2000 election leading economists including Alan Greenspan expressed concern over sustaining such a long term growth and Wallstreet "debt floating" and predicted a recessive dip as the GNP catches up with itself. I will also respectfully disagree about your summary of Clinton era state of the nation assesment. I think we are seeing his handy work floating to the surface in so many ways it's scary. He didn't get O.B.L. when he had the chance and his so called budget surplus as reported by the Wall Street Journal was about equal to the amount saved by his brilliant idea to cut the millitary and close bases. Also to imply in any way that we are "falling apart under Bush in other ways than economically is to imply that he had some control over 9/11 and the Iraq situation from the start... I must dissagree once again with you there

 

The Barbara Streisand reference was a bit of a jab at all the people who will recite the blood for oil mantra then drive back to their Hollywood compounds in their stretch limos.

[Jerry Bichsel]

Mark, Jack;

If the U.S. is such a horrific place that does nothing but bully every other country, force our way of life on others, steal other countries riches, why do you stay?

 

When will you be moving to one of those other "nirvana" places?

 

If I were so disgruntled as you seem to be with this country, I would move elsewhere.

 

Maybe China, North Korea, Iraq, Venezuela or Sudan would be more comforting.

 

From the sounds of it you are both fairing well under the evil oppression of the U.S. capitalistic monster.

 

As to whether I am better off than 2, 4, 6 or 8 years ago; YES. Bigger house, truck paid off, making more money, spending more time with my wife and kids, skiing almost every weekend.

 

True, the U.S. is not perfect. But I'll take it over any other place on this planet.

 

As to Iraq's direct threat to the U.S., true, they have nothing that can reach us directly, nut how long until they sell something to some terrorist that can be carried in a pen, cell phone, briefcase, etc., that get carried into a U.S. subway.

 

But I'm sure then all the blame will go on Bush for not having taken Saddam out when he had the chance.

 

Don't forget that Clinton had OSB offered to him in chains for (4) times.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

---

Chime in guy's, my prediction is that Bush attackes on Monday or perhaps a week on Monday.

---

C'mon guys, if anybody hears or sees anything remember this "Loose Lips Sink Ships". The safety of our soldiers is at stake and to speak of these things is irresponsible. Not that I believe that anybody of great importance is in here but this is a world wide venture and we just never know who is looking.

 

 

quote:

---

As to whether I am better off than 2, 4, 6 or 8 years ago; YES. Bigger house,...

---

I am also doing better. Seems as though things improve for me every year. Sometimes not by much but the only slide I saw in income was while Billary Clinton was President. Has anybody bothered to remind that rat b@$+@rd that he's no longer President? I mean it used to be considered to in poor taste for past Presidents to comment on current Administrations in a negative manner. I mean jeez, look at what George Sr. could've said about Billary? Man, fodder for years.... and years, and years.

 

I'm still waiting for that looser Alec Baldwin to leave the US which he vowed to do if Bush was elected as President. What a puss!

 

Capitalism is CLEARLY superior to Communism. Just look at the numbers. How do Communist/Socialist/Fascist/Totalitarian states fare in the GDP war? Not very well. Not very well at all. Capitalist states clearly contribute more humanitarian aid to countries that are not as fortunate.

 

JM2C

[Mark Lovelace]

Jerry and James, please reread my posts. Nowhere do I say that I do not appreciate my country, or that I have a problem with capitalism. Playing a part in democracy means sometimes voicing your opinion when you disagree with your government’s actions. Obviously, you guys have had your disagreements with past administrations, but you didn’t apply the ‘love it or leave it’ argument to yourselves then. Instead, I hope and trust that you voiced your opinions. That is democracy.

 

This nation has always been and will always be a work in progress. What kind of nation would we live in if we weren’t willing to talk openly about its flaws? What kind of nation would we live in if we weren’t willing to question our leaders? What kind of nation would we live in if those who voiced their opinions were kicked out? Blind faith leads to totalitarianism. That doesn’t mean that we have to disagree with our government, but when we do, we have a right and a responsibility to speak up.

 

A-Ron, thanks for the book title and link. The self-described conservative site www.enterstageright.com reviewed this book and found it to be largely anecdotal, and short on evidence. The reviewer concluded “Those expecting a book length academic study of bias in reporting will be disappointed.” In an interview excerpted on another site http://www.dailyhowler.com/h030102_1.shtml, Bernard Goldberg admitted that he “couldn’t quite name” the "numerous studies" that supported his arguments. Instead, he defended his conclusions by saying "I mean there are certain things that we just know are true because, because it’s just out there."

 

I was able to find the report that has been referred to here regarding bias among members of the press at http://secure.mediaresearch.org. The Media Research Center is a self-described conservative media watchdog group. According to their most recent figures (a 2001 Gallup poll), 25% of the press self-identified as liberals, and 27% self-identified as Democrats. I don’t see how this is any indication of a liberal bias.

 

quote:

---

Anyone care to post a link to an alternate political discussion forum?

---

Point made. Thanks for allowing this discussion.

[A-ron1286490684]

Mark,

Even if your facts check out, (25% liberal, 27% Democrat), That leaves Independants who largly represent the "swing" vote, Republicans, and conservatives, to comprise the less than 50%...

[A-ron1286490684]

And a couple more thoughts about the so-called "neutral" media... -What would the press gain by truly identifying their real political beliefs? Job security, credibility, the appearance of impartiality?

 

You know, I never heard one whimper about the death penalty when it came to David Westerfield or Tim McVeigh but I've heard plenty crap about "Is John Malvou being rushed to justice by a racist Attorney General?" I've also heard many times about Bush having the highest execution rate while Gov. of TX. but never heard a thing about the Ann Richards' previous "most executions" record when she was Gov. But there is no bias...

 

quote:

---

What kind of nation would we live in if those who voiced their opinions were kicked out? Blind faith leads to totalitarianism.

---

Try going to your local college campus and publicly voicing a conservative viewpoint. You'd be more succsessful trying to thread a wet noodle up a wildcats xxxx. (and you would probably be safer)

 

[ 02-20-2003, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: A-ron ]

[Jack Mitchell]

As predicted – Personally I am very, very, disappointed with today’s sad news.

 

Regards, Jack

[Toolfab]

GOD BLESS ANERICA, AND OUR ARMED FORCES, YOU HAVE MY UNDYING SUPPORT!

 

In the next 48 hours I think the world will change as we know it, for the better!

 

 

OOHRAH , SEMPER FI

 

I am not a Marine, but have enough family and friends that are. My words are to salute them and there units.

 

God bless the Fox 224!!

 

[ 03-18-2003, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Toolfab ]

[Tony]

Paul

Six more posts and your there...(200)

I think you might have set a record

[Toolfab]

Tony,

 

I got nothin bettter to do!