Need advice on a horizontal mill

[Bob W.]

I have heard very few good things about Mazak so it isn't on my short list.

[Bob W.]

Matsuura MAM72-63V

 

Is there a good used one out there? I know I couldn't afford a new one of those.

[Joe788]

Yep, If I could get a pallet changing 5-axis for not much more and it had those travels I would seriously consider it. What machine did you have in mind?

 

Pretty sure James is talking about the MAM72-63V. One badass piece of equipment. Unfortunately it will run about double the cost of an NH5000, and probably won't be able to swing a 28 inch long plate with the pallet changing version.

 

If you're only looking to do 5 axis work occasionally, you'll probably be happier with just a horizontal and a bolt on 5th.

 

Here's a bitchin' 5 axis Palletech system running some tombstones.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukDFv7LVoZQ

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Unfortunately it will run about double the cost of an NH5000

After you add a quality rotary table, get it installed, add the options to make i a real 5-Axis machine... I don't think so. It is more, no question, but it's WAY more machine that the Mori will ever be. Don't forget a post processor either. You going to get machine and collision detection with that Mori?

 

We just quoted a company for a 42V competing against an HMC with similar travels and a Nikken rotary table... the 42V was only about $32k more but was WAY more machine features-wise and capability.

 

Just sayin'... it pays to do your homework and don't rule anything out. The Mori sales-$lu+$ here in so-cal have done an outstanding job of brainwashing people here. We went into a place that just bought a Mori, and asked why they didn't even quote a Matsuura and the guy says "the Mori guy told me your machien is old... nothing new in X years". I just LOL inside... That's bad homework. The guy seriously missed out on the right piece of equipment for the job because he allowed himself to be mis-informed.... Unfortunately for him, his competitor bought one and was able to take a job away from him because the machine he bought was ill-equipped to do the job it was bought for.

 

It's like when the Vericut guys talk about CAMplete to my customers... in the end it just makes them look bad. They are MUCH better off talking about their own product, and it's a tremendous product at that. Vericut does some amazing things but it does not do everything CAMplete does.

[Joe788]

After you add a quality rotary table, get it installed, add the options to make i a real 5-Axis machine... I don't think so. It is more, no question, but it's WAY more machine that the Mori will ever be. Don't forget a post processor either. You going to get machine and collision detection with that Mori?

 

We just quoted a company for a 42V competing against an HMC with similar travels and a Nikken rotary table... the 42V was only about $32k more but was WAY more machine features-wise and capability.

 

Just sayin'... it pays to do your homework and don't rule anything out. The Mori sales-$lu+$ here in so-cal have done an outstanding job of brainwashing people here. We went into a place that just bought a Mori, and asked why they didn't even quote a Matsuura and the guy says "the Mori guy told me your machien is old... nothing new in X years". I just LOL inside... That's bad homework. The guy seriously missed out on the right piece of equipment for the job because he allowed himself to be mis-informed.... Unfortunately for him, his competitor bought one and was able to take a job away from him because the machine he bought was ill-equipped to do the job it was bought for.

 

It's like when the Vericut guys talk about CAMplete to my customers... in the end it just makes them look bad. They are MUCH better off talking about their own product, and it's a tremendous product at that. Vericut does some amazing things but it does not do everything CAMplete does.

 

Yeah I wasn't counting the rotary and a good pallet changer integration. Even if he drops $100K on the rotary, the 63V 2PC would be at least $200K more though wouldn't it? (Based on the prices I've been given).

 

If five axis work is really what somebody is looking to do, the extra $$$$ for a ground-up trunnion machine is definitely worth every penny.

[Bob W.]

I really don't do enough 5-axis work to justify that expense but I would like to have 5-axis capability. In reality 3+2 covers 95% of my needs but I would hate to lose out on a huge job because I couldn't do 5-axis.

[Greg Williams]

Adding a dual rotary to a Horizontal will be OK for 3+2 work. As others have said if you need full 5-axis then I would go for a specific 5 axis machine. One thing to be careful of. Any added rotary axis will need to be plumed into the machine, This may mean that the pallet cannot be used in a pallet pool. I would stick with a Japanese built machine if you can get it in under your budget. Also please do your research, Go out and look at the machines for yourself, Talk to the operators, Do some forum searches. Check what companies sell what and

 

Remember Google is your friend and Salesmen are after the next sale.

[Mic]

I know a lot of people that are sold on and sccessfully use that configuration. Myself, I just don't like it. I've had issues doing simultaneous work with hat congifuration, and ror not much more in some cases, I can get a REAL 5-Axis, one that is configured and designed to run in that manner. Is 29.9 x 33.2 x 24 acceptable travels?

 

These travels are for the old 63V.

 

The new one is X29.92 Y33.26 Z25.98

 

One bad a$$ machine. Only limitation max. swing for the pallet changer version.

 

A company close to us will soon get a Hermle C42U with 6 630x630 pallet's. It also looks very nice.

[robk]

I have heard very few good things about Mazak so it isn't on my short list.

 

We have quite a few different brands of machines here including Mazak, Matsuura, Mori-Seiki, Okuma, Johnford, Mikron, Parpas and a few more. I would not hesitate about Variaxis series from Mazak. All around very nice machines that handle any job we throw @ them without any issues over the last 5 years (I wish I could say that about their vertical integrex e-series).

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

These travels are for the old 63V.

 

The new one is X29.92 Y33.26 Z25.98

 

 

I just trimed a decimal place... sorry for the confusion.

[Mic]

I just trimed a decimal place... sorry for the confusion.

Z travel of 24 inch was on the first generation 63V. The current updated version has 26 inch Z travel. And if needed it possible to get it extended up to 30 inch.

[Bob W.]

A dealer I have been in contact with informed me that there was a Niigata SPN501 available that fit my requirements but I don't know the first thing about these machines. It has a 308 tool ATC (50 taper), full 4th, TSC, 15k 40 Hp spindle, and most of the other typical features on these machines, and it was new in 2006. How would one of these compare to a Mori or a Makino? Also, the control is a Fanuc 16iMA control. How does this control compare to the Fanuc 31? Is the 16iMA full 5-axis out of the box? I know the 31 is not and that could present issues if I ever decide to add a rotary table for full 5-axis work. Again, I know this will not be up to par with a true 5-axis machine but it will fit my needs.

 

One thing I do not like about the machine is the 4th is driven by a worm gear rather than direct drive. What are the pros and cons of each? Personally I really prefer the direct drive because of wear, zero backlash, accuracy, and speed but I don't know if there is a down side.

[Joe788]

World class machine tool, world's worst support. They did box-in-box 1575ipm rapid xy spindle, z table when just about everybody elses was still hauling the table around on the x axis. They went broke around the 2000 down turn, got swallowed by SNK, and have been floundering ever since. I wouldn't buy one unless it was 30 cents on the dollar. HUGE money and lead time for parts.

 

It's also 50 taper, which of course comes with the positives and negatives of 50 taper.

[Bob W.]

What are the negatives of 50 taper?

[Joe788]

Just slower at everything and holders are expensive. Doesn't sound like much, but making small parts on a CAT50 machine sucks.

[MIL-TFP-41]

World class machine tool, world's worst support.

Joe hit on a key word here....support. There is a couple of reasons we have 15+ Matsuuras in various vintages and configurations....

1- They are well built, they don't go down often

2- If they do go down, the support network behind them is excellent to say the least

In 20+ years working with Matsuura's, we have had 3 spindles go bad....2 of those were due to an operator putting way lube where DTE oil light is supposed to go. Niigata used to have this reputation also....awesome machine....but now no support. Support is one of the reasons we have never looked into some of the European brands (there are some great bridge mills, horizontal boring mills out of Europe....none of which have good support in the US)

[Bob W.]

One thing that comes to mind is that if I buy a horizontal mill and load it up with 180+ standard tools that always stay on the machine, Mastercam doesn't have the capability to keep the correct holders assigned to those tools permanently. It would be a huge improvement if Mastercam could do that and I hope it is on their to-do list.

[Joe788]

I agree Bob. That would be a pretty handy improvement. As it is though, it's not that bad. The tools will stay with the holders once you've started a new program, so you just need a library of holders for that machine, with the holders labeled appropriately. Not as easy as having the tools always tied in automatically, but still pretty quick.

[MIL-TFP-41]

One thing that comes to mind is that if I buy a horizontal mill and load it up with 180+ standard tools that always stay on the machine, Mastercam doesn't have the capability to keep the correct holders assigned to those tools permanently. It would be a huge improvement if Mastercam could do that and I hope it is on their to-do list.

 

Sure it does.....I just make a custom tool library for each machine. I have a library named "MAM72-63V" that has 200 tools in it....they always stay in the machine. I also have a 120 tool library named "H-plus 630"

[Bob W.]

Sure it does.....I just make a custom tool library for each machine. I have a library named "MAM72-63V" that has 200 tools in it....they always stay in the machine. I also have a 120 tool library named "H-plus 630"

 

I have several libraries set up as well, but they don't do the tool holders. Since the tool/ holder combos would rarely change it would be nice if the library could keep the holders straight as well. With my VMCs the tools are changed so often that it doesn't make much sense but in a horizontal there would be much more consistency with given tools staying in the same holder, with the same lengths, etc...

[Sticky]

Niigatas are really nice machines, definitely check your area for service and support, it might not be as bad as some people make it sound, but it could be worse as well so definitely investigate. For the most part though having the manuals should be good enough to fix nearly anything, most of the high end Japanese builders use common switches, bearings etc. If the machine was well maintained and comes with or can have a complete set of manuals available I would not be afraid.

 

I have to agree with JMC in regards to the Matsuuras, we have a couple verticals and a Horizontal from them, top notch build quality, service and support.