Okuma MacTurn/Multus or Mazak Integrex j

[T_MALENA]

Guys I'm sure we all have opinions of either machine we like. But what are the cons of these? I've herd good/bad about all of them. I'm sure if someone searched back far enough I have had bad comments about both. But I'd really like to hear from people running a MacTurn, Multus & Integrex machines. My 1st thought is the Multus or Integrex j(no lower turret only mill head). But for another 150k we could get a lower turret machine. I'm creating a machining cell with 2 machines(a 200 & 400 size) along with smaller support equipment. As you could guess the CNC's make up most of the investment. The parts are more or less simple gear plates(think big washers). The smaller high volume parts on a 200 series CNC & the larger parts on the 400 series. Its not a lot of detail on the part but they are real simple & I have no doubt these can be machined on all these CNC's with the same results. I'm looking for reliability, speed & ease of use(after the parts are proven).

I'm leaning Okuma(lots of exp here), the boss is leaning Mazak(I have no exp here).

 

Thanks in advance.

[Joe788]

Guys I'm sure we all have opinions of either machine we like. But what are the cons of these? I've herd good/bad about all of them. I'm sure if someone searched back far enough I have had bad comments about both. But I'd really like to hear from people running a MacTurn, Multus & Integrex machines. My 1st thought is the Multus or Integrex j(no lower turret only mill head). But for another 150k we could get a lower turret machine. I'm creating a machining cell with 2 machines(a 200 & 400 size) along with smaller support equipment. As you could guess the CNC's make up most of the investment. The parts are more or less simple gear plates(think big washers). The smaller high volume parts on a 200 series CNC & the larger parts on the 400 series. Its not a lot of detail on the part but they are real simple & I have no doubt these can be machined on all these CNC's with the same results. I'm looking for reliability, speed & ease of use(after the parts are proven).

I'm leaning Okuma(lots of exp here), the boss is leaning Mazak(I have no exp here).

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Half the people on this board work for Okuma, so just a little heads up on where this thread is going to go.

 

Do the parts have a bunch of odd angles or milled features? Any reason you don't want to go with a normal lathe?

[T_MALENA]

Parts are simple. no odd anything. The main reason for the multi axis is to get the tool changer(40-80 tools). I want to have this machine run unattended for days with no input from me. It'll have a robot loading/unloading parts. The 40+ tools will allow me to have plenty of backup tooling, so I'll be running toollife mgmt & just swap out tools as they get dull. Hopefully it'll work out so I can just reload a bunch of tools just 1-2x per week. Basically I'm spending lots of money to get the most automated run time. At least thats the plan.

[Joe788]

Parts are simple. no odd anything. The main reason for the multi axis is to get the tool changer(40-80 tools). I want to have this machine run unattended for days with no input from me. It'll have a robot loading/unloading parts. The 40+ tools will allow me to have plenty of backup tooling, so I'll be running toollife mgmt & just swap out tools as they get dull. Hopefully it'll work out so I can just reload a bunch of tools just 1-2x per week. Basically I'm spending lots of money to get the most automated run time. At least thats the plan.

 

 

Ahhh, makes perfect sense.

[Watcher]

Not really your original question, but a WFL MillTurn G series (35G / 40G 65G) can offer dual spindles as well...

 

And these are very robust machines... with an excellent service and support when compared with Mazaks and Moris... at least in our experience...

 

JM2C

[YoDoug®]

Half the people on this board work for Okuma, so just a little heads up on where this thread is going to go.

 

 

LOL, I have already been told that since I work for an Okuma distributor that my 20 years of machining experience with many, many different brands of machines is no longer valid, no need to remind me.

 

We should include Nakamura in the discussion too so James doesn't feel left out.

 

 

 

[Greg Williams]

Do you need the B axis head? The twin spindle twin 12 station turret machine will be Much much faster.I have a Multus B200W with all of the bells and whistles if you have any questions.I use an MPpostability post

[T_MALENA]

The main reason getting the multi axis is to get the tool changer on a lathe with two spindles.

[chris m]

LOL, I have already been told that since I work for an Okuma distributor that my 20 years of machining experience with many, many different brands of machines is no longer valid, no need to remind me.

 

It isn't that your experience is not valid, but I find it very hard to believe that your employer would be cool with it if he read your post that said "Mazak is far better at multi-tasking machines than we are." I think I have told people working for multiple distributors on this forum exactly the same thing; you are most likely one of them.

 

I do not work for Okuma or The Robert E. Morris Company, nor do I receive any graft from them beyond the occasional t-shirt, and I can say that I would buy the MacTurn because two tools in the cut are better than one and Okumas ROCK. I, however, am not objective because I have a personal vendetta against Mazak (not joking, not enough bad things can happen to Mazak in New England), and I do not operate a Multus or MacTurn. We have an LT, which you don't want, and LB3000EX-MY, which you also don't want, along with a passel more Okumas.

 

 

C

[GoetzInd]

I would go okuma over mazak. Also, look at nak and Mori NT.

 

Mike

[Jeremy Herron@DBS Solutions™]

Mazak is cheaper, I have one, but you get what you pay for is all I have to say about that.

[High Performance]

Mazak is cheaper, I have one, but you get what you pay for is all I have to say about that.

 

Hi Tim, I believe Brian from Spring Tech may have passed you my information.

 

In my opinion, the mazak would be better bang for buck. Ive worked with many different Integrex models, and they work very well depending on what you want. Integrex MkIV is good if you do a lot of turning, E series if you do a lot of milling. My personal opinion is that the Okumas controls are more complex than they need to be. Mori NT are good machines, however you will definetly pay for them. Also Mazak has many different MTM models, they pioneered the multitasking process more than 20 years ago.

 

ive balance turned (two turrets at once, not quite the same, but similar to pinch turning) 6061 T6 at .052 ipr at 1/2" doc (per side) on an integrex 400ST. Ive also run 14-15" long 66mm coromill 210 feedmills at 300+ipm on Integrex E670HS, finishing within .002 finish size exceeding required 63 finish with a Coromill 790, helical interpolating to the same 14+" depth in 4130 steel(keep in mind this is an 80,000 - 100,000 lb machine).

 

If you dont require odd angle work, you can also go for I and J series integrex machines which are much lower priced, and work very well as well, I have a few customers with I series machines. You can travel well below the spindle (in x axis) for easier milling (which is usually a limitation on some of these types of machines). They have optional 5 degree or 1 degree B axis index. Basically its similar to the E series but is not capable of simultaneous 5 axis machining.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Also, do you currently have a robotic integrator in mind? will you be using manufacturer supplied robots? or implementing your own cell?

 

I can provide you with assistance with the Integrex machines and robotic integration if you require.

[DavidB]

Okuma over Mazak everyday

[chris m]

My personal opinion is that the Okumas controls are more complex than they need to be

 

That's what I thought before I started working with them a lot, but the functionality is quite nice when you are accustomed to it; no different that any other CNC, I don't think. The OP already has a lot of OSP experience, so much of the learning curve is behind him.

 

We had a serious issue with a Integrex 300SY, but that was a decade ago so perhaps the bugs we found have been ironed out now. We also had a serious issue with Mazak management, which will never be ironed out.

 

C

[T_MALENA]

Chris, my thoughts exactly. I'm not getting a good feeling from the Mazak support around me. They actually said they didn't know how to machine our part!!!!!! That was total BS, these parts are simple & can be programmed at the machine! I've worked with this Mazak rep before on different projects/company, I dont think they realised who I was! And yea I've been on Okuma's since early 1990's.

 

Brandon, yes Brian passed your contact info. Obviously you're comfortable with Mazak as I am with Okuma. Funny I always thought Mazak was more complicated than they needed to be:)

 

But seriously I'm wanting the best fit machine, I'm sure I can learn how to function on a Mazak, Mori etc. The hardest part of this line of work is knowing how to make the parts then apply what you know to ANY machine. This is going to be a dedicated production cell running a family of parts. I need plenty of tools in a tool changer(40+), 2 spindles(A2-11) that can handle 600# each, be reliable & accurate. Also have QUICK service support when things go bad.

[LucaOMS]

hello cris

I have 17 CNC machines and even a Okuma (because of those who sell them in Italy)

I have at home 3 Integrex 200 with 40 tools and 80 all with 2 heads and 5-axis high speed machining '.

I do not like the Mazatrol programming and almost always use ISO, but I assure you of mastercam (mastercam use with: solid - BGN 3 mill - Multi - high-speed machining - Art and lathe) I use the version 8 and I can assure you that with programming by mastercam mill-turn machining and you go really well

 

INTEGREX you with a much less extent, if you think you already being able to handle 40 tools (not 80 as I say to them you have to pay around $ 60k).

I do not know Okuma, Mazak but I know (I only like Mazak Integrex for 5-axis milling machines and lathes with Y-axis Mori Seiki much prefer).

 

look at this sequence of photos:

Brake Pump for Dovizioso

 

This is the execution of a master cylinder for the Repsol Honda MotoGP team 2011per

the whole program was done with mastercam, on the machine I put a blank ergal 150mm diameter 100mm long, and after 6 hours on two heads using 40 tools from the machine out the finished piece

between the processes important to point out:

48mm deep 2.5mm diameter hole inclined at 25 degrees

roughness of the inner chamber brake RA0.15 cylindricity and roundness within 0.01mm

 

 

ps: if you think of MAZAK know that if you want greater precision 0.025/0.03 you absolutely must get their lines reading optical position

 

Luca

[T_MALENA]

Luco, Awesome Lamborghini! Where in Italy are you?

[LucaOMS]

Luco, Awesome Lamborghini! Where in Italy are you?

in turin...

if you like visit www.omsht.it to see my location

By

Luca

[T_MALENA]

Cool we have a facility in Orzinouvi.

[High Performance]

That's what I thought before I started working with them a lot, but the functionality is quite nice when you are accustomed to it; no different that any other CNC, I don't think. The OP already has a lot of OSP experience, so much of the learning curve is behind him.

 

We had a serious issue with a Integrex 300SY, but that was a decade ago so perhaps the bugs we found have been ironed out now. We also had a serious issue with Mazak management, which will never be ironed out.

 

C

 

Yeah I havent had too much experience with okumas (a little bit, but not extensively), but if I worked on them more I would be fine. One example that turned me off on the multus was just doing a toolchange in MDI, compared to an integrex it just seemed weird to me. Ive worked with Moris before as well. Damned good machines. But $$$$$$$! I know several of them around had some problems with toolchangers, their dual drive ball screw systems, etc. every machine has their issues though.

 

The Integrex SY cannot even be compared to current machines. The SY machines were around in the mid 90s. I would imagine long before the multus and macturn had been on the drawing board, but then again I dont know okumas that well so I may be wrong. Even the MkIV Integrex over the MkIII integrex was a major improvement (IMO). I know in my area, Mazak dominates the competition. There are a few Mori NT machines around here, but there are a ton more Integrex machines than anything ive seen around.

 

Tim, if the mazak applications guy said they didnt even know how to make your part, you were talking to the wrong guy. I worked with a customer just recently who had an applications guy give him a timestudy of 17 minutes, when it should have been 3 times that amount. For a 100+lb forging, I had the machine cutting extremely aggressively with top end tools cutting steel at up to 650ipm just to hit the 45 minute mark. I told them they should have asked me first lol. I used to be an applications guy for a mazak reseller (thats why I know them so well lol)

 

In terms of work cell, the integrex machines have the Flex GL gantry robot for some models, they also have the E-Bot 720 which is i believe a 6 axis fanuc robot. however im not sure if ive ever seen an E-Bot 720 running on anything but an E-500HS which sounds like it is much larger than you need.

 

If you want some help with figuring out best fit and planning the project feel free to shoot me an email, I can take a look at what you are planning to do and make some suggestions, Ive worked extensively with MTM machines. In terms of mastercam and whatever machine you choose of the three, machine model is pretty much irrelevant. The will all work just fine with Mastercam, regardless of configration, its all about how things are set up.

[LucaOMS]

 

Tim, if the mazak applications guy said they didnt even know how to make your part, you were talking to the wrong guy.

 

I agree...

Luca

[T_MALENA]

He was the right guy, just playing stupid. Not a very good sales ploy. From what I understand Mazak service is from Mazak not the local sales office, correct? For us Okuma tech support & service comes from Gosiger, who does a excellent job of supporting us tech & service wise.

[chris m]

tech support & service comes from Gosiger, who does a excellent job of supporting us tech & service wise

 

Then why is there even a question on this? I understand shopping around if you were buying a standalone VMC or something that would just be installed and then you'd be on your own, but for something as complex as you are talking about I think changing horses is insane. Talking about looking to buy trouble, man; I think this is a really bad idea.

 

C

[T_MALENA]

Mainly the boss wants Mazak. We have other manufacturing plants all over the world using what is supported close to them, here in the states Mazak is big in our other plants. We have excellent tech support & service for our Okuma & Mazak CNC's in our other plants. Only have Okuma support here. I'm on the hook wanting to go with Okuma. The final choice will be ours though. I'm obviously leaning to Okuma, but I wanted to hear from some strong Mazak supporters. You never know maybe I'm missing something.

[High Performance]

Mainly the boss wants Mazak. We have other manufacturing plants all over the world using what is supported close to them, here in the states Mazak is big in our other plants. We have excellent tech support & service for our Okuma & Mazak CNC's in our other plants. Only have Okuma support here. I'm on the hook wanting to go with Okuma. The final choice will be ours though. I'm obviously leaning to Okuma, but I wanted to hear from some strong Mazak supporters. You never know maybe I'm missing something.

 

Mazak support is usually relatively strong. In terms of service it depends on the area, some service is completed by dealers, some by Mazak themselves. Warranty service is performed exclusively by Mazak. One of my large customers in Edmonton had a machine that was behind schedule on installation, They sent one installer from Kentucky, one from Japan. Once they discovered that it was taking longer than they thought it should they brought a third service guy to help get it done (FYI it was a very large machine, not a simple install). Mazak is usually pretty quick to support their machines. They also have a policy of replacement parts being shipped within 24 hours of the order being placed. They have a large and very automated parts facility at their factory in Kentucky. Also if you havent been to the Kentucky factory, It would be worth the trip, it will help you see what Mazak is all about. That plant is really not as impressive as their Japanese factories though. But to see the level of automation they use it is very impressive. Especially if you intend to run fully automated yourself.