First 5-axis machine - opinions?

[Marshal]

We are looking at the Hurco VMX42SRTi, and I'm wondering if anyone has one of these, or has anyone seen one work? Or does anyone have any opinions good or bad on this particular machine? Obviously it's no high-end 5-axis machine, but it (or something similar in design) would probably suit our needs rather well. I like the fact that the rotary table is on the same plane as the rest of the bed, so it can easily be used for larger parts in a 4-axis mode, but at the same time I don't really even know if we would even use that feature.

 

We're looking to expand into the 4/5 axis world and I'm curious what everyone thinks is a good starter machine. The vast majority of work that we do is fixture making for our painting process, with a small amount of production work. I've had few parts that a 4- or 5-axis machine would drastically improve manufacture time, but we've always made them work with our 3-axis Hurco VM1, it just takes a heck of a lot longer with multiple setups.

 

So I'm interested in opinions on what people think is a good first 5-axis machine. It doesn't need to be insanely accurate, or extremely fast, or anything like that. Just a good, somewhat budget friendly starter machine to get us into the 5-axis field.

[Joe788]

I'd go with a trunnion machine. How much does that Hurco cost?

[Marshal]

I'd go with a trunnion machine. How much does that Hurco cost?

 

I don't know how much it costs. I heard something regarding pricing at IMTS, but I don't remember exactly what it was.

[mkd]

Leadwell also makes a machine in this category.

funuc control

 

i'm a bit biased but the Haas umc750 seems very attractive

[Mic6]

[Marshal]

I'd go with a trunnion machine. How much does that Hurco cost?

 

Sounds like it's right in that $200ish range. I see the Haas starts at $150, so that's certainly a consideration.

 

It's definitely not a major rush for us to get one, it probably wouldn't be until late summer or even late into the fall before we ordered it. I've also never programmed anything more than 3-axis, so that'd certainly be a new experience.

 

One major thing we're looking for is something somewhat universal, and by that I mean it can be used for a lot of 3-axis work when we don't have anything complicated to do. 99% of what we machine is aluminum, there's very little steel or any other material. We're also mostly a prototype/fixture shop, so it's not very often that we run a part more than a few times. We have a few production parts that are run, but most of them are easily handled by a standard 3-axis machine and are rarely run more than once every couple of months.

 

This machine would be mostly for expanding our current capabilities, and reducing the load on the mill we have now.

[Mr. M]

What kind of size capacity are you looking for?

[Joe788]

I'd definitely go with the Haas over the Hurco. On a trunnion machine (as long as you're not using G54.2, G43.4, etc) there is no learning curve for the operators, and basically no learning curve for the programmer. You add in a lot more bullxxxx when you start tilting the head.

[cincy k]

Take a look at Quaser. I've read about a few end users of them that are very happy with their experience. www.quaser.com

[Mr. M]

You could also check out the Hardinge GX250-5AX. I'm not sure if that will fit your size requirements or not. Otherwise the MU10000 that gcode got would fit most anything but maybe a little overkill for ya

[Marshal]

What kind of size capacity are you looking for?

 

 

Well, our VM1 has travel of 26x16x20, and I don't think we'd want to go smaller than that. One of our products that would greatly benefit from a 5-axis mill starts as a 12x12x0.5" block, so I'd definitely have to be able to get that on the table.

 

I'd definitely go with the Haas over the Hurco. On a trunnion machine (as long as you're not using G54.2, G43.4, etc) there is no learning curve for the operators, and basically no learning curve for the programmer. You add in a lot more bullxxxx when you start tilting the head.

 

Can you elaborate on that a little? Remember, I've got no experience with programming anything over 3-axis, and minimal experience with surfacing to begin with.

[gcode]

I went to Charlotte, NC a couple of weeks ago to run some test programs on a new Okuma horizontal 5axis.

MU10000H

http://www.okuma.com/mu-10000h

 

while I was there I got to watch a smaller vertical 5X trunnion machine

the MU-500V

http://www.okuma.com/mu-v-series

 

this is a very nice looking machine.

It's big step up from Hurco and Haas though, and I'll bet the price is a big step up too.

[GoetzInd]

It's big step up from Hurco and Haas though, and I'll bet the price is a big step up too.

 

That would be an understatement. But, like most things, you get what you pay for.

 

Mike

[mkd]

 

Can you elaborate on that a little? Remember, I've got no experience with programming anything over 3-axis, and minimal experience with surfacing to begin with.

with tilting head of any type, you need to deal with machine pivot point and tool gauge lengths. no matter how easy a manufacturer makes the setting-up, it is still there as a potential for an error or mistake. this particular fault is not present on a table/ table machine

[Joe788]

Can you elaborate on that a little? Remember, I've got no experience with programming anything over 3-axis, and minimal experience with surfacing to begin with.

 

With a trunnion machine, you can keep programming simple by placing your TPlane origin at the center of rotation in your CAM space. At that point, you can just create new TPlanes in any orientation you want. As long as you select the center of rotation as the origin. The code looks just like any other 3 axis code, except it'll have A and C position calls, (and the XYZ numbers won't really make sense, since the top of your part might be Z8.235 instead of Z0.) But XYZ are always the same orientation. I think Mastercam even comes with a free Haas Trunnion post? More expensive trunnion machines also have G54.2, G54.4, G43.4, G68.5, and any other fancy 5 axis function you'd need, but you can easily get by without them.

 

With a tilting head, you need to utilize special control functions like G68.5 to tilt your work plane, and/or G43.4 to manage the tool center point, etc. This also requires a more complex post. The post will be a couple thousand bucks, and extremely difficult for a noob to get sorted, since you'll be relying on the post to get good code, except you won't really have the proper experience with those functions to give usable feedback to the post developer.

[gcode]

As a rule, trunion machines are stronger than titling head machines.. because the spindle of

a trunnion machine is fixed like any regular HMC or VMC.. all the 5X motion is handled by the trunnion.

There is more room for the designers to build strong structures to support the 5X motion.

For example, on the MU10000 machine I linked to in my earlier post, the X axis and trunnion weight

63,000 pounds and the spindle is a very solid 60hp spindle.

A tilting head structure that could support a 60hp spindle would be massive.

[Marshal]

With a trunnion machine, you can keep programming simple by placing your TPlane origin at the center of rotation in your CAM space. At that point, you can just create new TPlanes in any orientation you want. As long as you select the center of rotation as the origin. The code looks just like any other 3 axis code, except it'll have A and C position calls, (and the XYZ numbers won't really make sense, since the top of your part might be Z8.235 instead of Z0.) But XYZ are always the same orientation. I think Mastercam even comes with a free Haas Trunnion post? More expensive trunnion machines also have G54.2, G54.4, G43.4, G68.5, and any other fancy 5 axis function you'd need, but you can easily get by without them.

 

With a tilting head, you need to utilize special control functions like G68.5 to tilt your work plane, and/or G43.4 to manage the tool center point, etc. This also requires a more complex post. The post will be a couple thousand bucks, and extremely difficult for a noob to get sorted, since you'll be relying on the post to get good code, except you won't really have the proper experience with those functions to give usable feedback to the post developer.

 

The way the Hurco guys explained it to me this morning was that it essentially uses the conversational programming to transform the toolplane and then can use standard 3-axis programs. It didn't necessarily have to be on the centerline of the table or anything along those lines.

 

I'm not too concerned about the cost of the post or anything like that, since that's a one-time cost that pays for itself in the long run.

 

As a rule, trunion machines are stronger than titling head machines.. because the spindle of

a trunnion machine is fixed like any regular HMC or VCM.. all the 5X motion is handled by the trunnion

and there is more room for the designers to build strong structures to support the 5X motion.

For example, on the MU10000 machine I linked to in my earlier post, the X axis and trunnion weight

63,000 pounds and the spindle is a very solid 60hp spindle.

A tilting head structure that could support a 60hp spindle would be massive.

 

Strength isn't something we are to worried about, we don't do really large parts or put large loads on the spindle. Obviously it's got to be rigid to keep vibrations down and get a better finish, but the few parts I've seen off the Hurco machines have a pretty darn good finish. I realize something like this or the Haas wouldn't be anywhere near the quality (or cost) of a high-end Okuma or something, but that's also not something we'd use to the full extent and get our money's worth out of.

 

I really appreciate all the opinions and options, so keep them coming!

[Mic6]

63,000 pounds

JFC

[Matthew]

I use a vf3 with a trunnion for our 5 axis work. This works great for our prototyping services. The biggest part I put on here if I remember correctly was 16 x 16 x 3" thick. I had to move the a axis in order to rotate the b axis without crashing but it worked. I have a small adapter plate that will accept a raptor work holding fixture, or a vise if I need to do plain 3 axis work on this machine. Anything larger usually requires some kind of fixture plate. The raptor is programmed from center of rotation. We have a template file with the raptor modelled onto the sub plate in the right position relative to center of rotation. We have 24" bars of various sizes of aluminum prepped for the raptor fixture. The raptor fixture has a dovetail and a pin to locate and hold the material. We cut off in 1" increments only and have the stock prepped with slots every 1/2". This allows the stock to always be in the center. All the standard stock is also all drawn up in solid works in 1" increments from 2" to 10" and we import the proper stock size for the workpiece. This comes into mastercam in the proper position on the raptor fixture. When we import the part we rotate and position it inside the stock and start making the toolpaths.

 

Here is a picture of a prototype part I did a couple weeks ago. This is after it was roughed out. This part was too big for the raptor fixture so I had to make a fixture plate and prep the stock with tapped and dowel holes to hold it for the first op. after I cut off the excess stock at the bottom I used this cut off as a fixture to hold the part for the second operation.

 

I had to go down 10" into the part to finish a 3" bore to .004" tolerance. Not too tight, but considering the size of the part, thin walls, and length of the tool I held this to .002". I used a 2" diameter sandvik 790 with capto mount and an extension to achieve this. The 3/4" cutter in the picture roughed out most of this part.

 

While this machine is probably not great for production, it works well for our prototypes.

 

Matt.

[Mick]

I went to Charlotte, NC a couple of weeks ago to run some test programs on a new Okuma horizontal 5axis.

MU10000H

http://www.okuma.com/mu-10000h

 

while I was there I got to watch a smaller vertical 5X trunnion machine

the MU-500V

http://www.okuma.com/mu-v-series

 

this is a very nice looking machine.

It's big step up from Hurco and Haas though, and I'll bet the price is a big step up too.

 

We recently ordered the MU-500V. They're really impressive machines, and for us, it was surprisingly well priced. Of course, that had a lot to do with the favourable yen rate . Ours will be delivered on or around the end of June/early July. Of course, it is nothing near as impressive as gcodes MU1000H. That machine is a beast!