Horizontal tool carousel upgrade?

[Matthew Hajicek - Singularity]

I don't have high hopes but figured it's worth asking. Does anyone know if it's feasible or even possible to upgrade the tool carousel on a horizontal? We've got three Kitamura's with 50 tools each, and another with 40.

[EX-wccprogrammer]

We have (2) Hyundai-Kia HBM's. Both came with 40 tool carousels, we upgraded both to 90's.

 

We still have jobs where we have to load tools by hand.

[Sticky]

"It depends"

 

Every MFG, and each of their models have different ways of adding tool capacity. Matrix's, in general, are the easiest to add or expand onto. Tool chain systems are usually less upgradable. Expect the cost to be a bit $alty though, figure $500-1000/per tool. No that is not a typo;)

[Guest]

Kitamura has an add on tool magazine. It's basically this hokey additional magazine that sits next to the original one then passes the tool to the first magazine then into the spindle. Like a 1 min tool change. ROFLMAO.

 

Now, if you wan to do it right, there's a company that makes add on tool magazines. REAL magazines not like the BS Kit tries to pass off. http://www.mam-maschinen.com/en/index.php check this out.

 

HTH

[Matthew Hajicek - Singularity]

The 1 min toolchange could be acceptable to sub in a backup tool, if it can then take the place of the original tool with normal toolchange times. Or if it can properly pre-stage. I'll have to look into the MAM stuff.

 

Thanks, glad I asked.

[crazy^millman]

I have seen those systems James just recommended in place and they are awesome.

[dstryr]

What would these cost? I have a 2011 Mori Nh5000 that I got a killer deal on 6 months ago but they won't even quote upgrading the 60 tool chain to something else. I asked and they are stating it would be in the 100's of thousands of dollars to upgrade it... I just don't believe it....

[crazy^millman]

Yeah that sounds crazy. Look to those guys and they should be able to help you a lot cheaper with a quality system.

[dstryr]

are they local? I can't seem to find contact info for anyone in the United States. I'm in San Jose California

[Guest]

What would these cost? I have a 2011 Mori Nh5000 that I got a killer deal on 6 months ago but they won't even quote upgrading the 60 tool chain to something else. I asked and they are stating it would be in the 100's of thousands of dollars to upgrade it... I just don't believe it....

THAT'S why you got a killer deal. A Matsuura would only cost you about $10~$15k to go from 60 to 240 tools. An HMC with 60 tools max capability is like a Ferrari with a bug engine in it.

[dstryr]

THAT'S why you got a killer deal. A Matsuura would only cost you about $10~$15k to go from 60 to 240 tools. An HMC with 60 tools max capability is like a Ferrari with a bug engine in it.

 

It seems almost all of the moris out there are behind in the tool magazine department. It isn't horrible as I have my fixtures designed well enough to where a job change over requires swapping the fixture and going to the back of the machine and just swapping out the tools. Then all the setup guy has to do is run a quick little cycle to reset all the tools with the laser probe. For $335k for a nh5000 500mm horizontal with an NC4 I think I got a really good deal.

 

Now if only I could find a motivated mori/ellison employee to help me rather than try and sell me another machine..... Like I said I find it very hard to believe they can't upgrade it from the 60 tool chain to a matrix for under $60k.

 

The 6 cpp is around $250k as well....

 

I might be better off selling this machine and looking for a matsurra or mazak when the time comes....

 

A shop owner from practicalmachinist is selling his 2011 matsurra with 120 tools and 11 pallets at a very good price...

[Joe788]

It seems almost all of the moris out there are behind in the tool magazine department. It isn't horrible as I have my fixtures designed well enough to where a job change over requires swapping the fixture and going to the back of the machine and just swapping out the tools. Then all the setup guy has to do is run a quick little cycle to reset all the tools with the laser probe. For $335k for a nh5000 500mm horizontal with an NC4 I think I got a really good deal.

 

Now if only I could find a motivated mori/ellison employee to help me rather than try and sell me another machine..... Like I said I find it very hard to believe they can't upgrade it from the 60 tool chain to a matrix for under $60k.

 

 

Isn't the 120 option on an NH like over $100K anyways? I know a place that upgraded some Mazaks to a bigger magazine because they were in a Palletech system and desperately needed the extra capacity, but it's expensive. In their case, they already had a large magazine and were going to a larger magazine, so it's just a magazine change. Even in that case - you have to pay full pop for the bigger magazine, and you get no credit for the old magazine, so the new one is significantly more expensive than the option shown on the new machine price list.

 

Most horizontals in the base configuration will have a dinky 40-60 tool random pocket drum or chain, with a very simple mechanism to get the tools from the drum/chain to the ready position. A big part of the price jump up to the bigger mags, is the increased complexity of getting the tools out of the magazine and into the ready position. The machine castings and sheetmetal might not even be compatible with the larger magazine. And even if it was, the MTB and/or dealer is now taking liability for the operation of the magazine.

[Guest]

120 tool machine is probably on a 240 base. It's about 10~15k installed to go from 120 to 240 and can be done in a morning depending on the tech.

[Joe788]

THAT'S why you got a killer deal. A Matsuura would only cost you about $10~$15k to go from 60 to 240 tools. An HMC with 60 tools max capability is like a Ferrari with a bug engine in it.

 

***IF*** you paid the premium for the 240 base up front. You're not gonna jump an HPlus405 with a 51 tool drum to a 240 tool Matrix for $15K.

[Guest]

Buy the most expandable magazine you can. Matsuura is nice because, you can go from say 60 tools to 240, or on the new ones up o 520 tools fully loaded or f you want to keep price down, don't get all the racks right out of the gate. Expand as you need to. This is he beauty of rack style tool magazines. Most of the time I highly recommend against chain type on multi pallet machines. It just limits your flexibility way too much.

 

JM2CFWIW

[Guest]

 

 

***IF*** you paid the premium for the 240 base up front. You're not gonna jump an HPlus405 with a 51 tool drum to a 240 tool Matrix for $15K.

I can't say as I have even seen one of those in the field.

[dstryr]

Buy the most expandable magazine you can. Matsuura is nice because, you can go from say 60 tools to 240, or on the new ones up o 520 tools fully loaded or f you want to keep price down, don't get all the racks right out of the gate. Expand as you need to. This is he beauty of rack style tool magazines. Most of the time I highly recommend against chain type on multi pallet machines. It just limits your flexibility way too much.

 

JM2CFWIW

 

I own a small job shop and definately the next machine will have a larger tool magazine and upgradability. I had a huge project to work on when I bought the machine which paid for 3/4 of the machine in 6 months and I needed something right away. I could sell it for what I paid for it rather easily so I guess my plan is to use this machine for a while and if I find the need to jump to a bigger system sell it and look into a Matsurra, Makino, or Mazak.

[Sticky]

***IF*** you paid the premium for the 240 base up front. You're not gonna jump an HPlus405 with a 51 tool drum to a 240 tool Matrix for $15K.

 

EXACTLY! You pay an initial premium to have that 240+ MATRIX base to start with. No way in hell you are going from a chain to a matrix for under 100k.

[Guest]

Pay for it now, or pay for it later. I would argue that now is cheaper than later. Later will cause you to stop production on a machine for however long the install and prove-out takes.

[Sticky]

Pay for it now, or pay for it later. I would argue that now is cheaper than later. Later will cause you to stop production on a machine for however long the install and prove-out takes.

 

Now is definitely cheaper then later. On a lot of machines it is simply NOT an option to switch from chain/drum to matrix in the field. Buy a big matrix and add racks as necessary. That way you can start with something like 120 and go up to 240 in an afternoon. And no, it still won't be cheap!

[Newbeeee™]

THAT'S why you got a killer deal. A Matsuura would only cost you about $10~$15k to go from 60 to 240 tools. An HMC with 60 tools max capability is like a Ferrari with a bug engine in it.

Here in the UK (or as the world tends to refer to us as 'Treasure Island' because EVERYTHING is sooooooo bloody expensive, a H300 with a 240 base and only 90 tools, costed 8 years ago £4k (so $6.5) per strip of 30 (by memory).

So for your example of 60>240, that would be around £24k + fitting ($38k) but I expect you could get a deal...

[Sticky]

Here in the UK (or as the world tends to refer to us as 'Treasure Island' because EVERYTHING is sooooooo bloody expensive, a H300 with a 240 base and only 90 tools, costed 8 years ago £4k (so $6.5) per strip of 30 (by memory).

So for your example of 60>240, that would be around £24k + fitting ($38k) but I expect you could get a deal...

 

That is a bargain compared to Canada! Those 30 strip racks here are $16,500/pc, IF you order them with the machine. The 40 pc ones for the tall matrix are $20,500 Those are the genuine Matsuura ones though, there are other people that make them for a hell of a lot cheaper;)

 

Approx prices I have seen for 240 tool Matrix's for CAT/BT style tooling on 400mm hmc's:

Mazak HCN4000 240 tool matrix is $149,000

Matsuura 240 matrix $135,000

I lost my Mori quote, it was the highest.

 

Remember what I was saying earlier about $500-1000/tool? Keep in mind that is before you actually buy any arbors or cutting tools...

[Newbeeee™]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHH - inflation heh???

I was quoting 8 year old prices 'cus I really couldn't see Hucks prices were anywhere near close?

[Guest]

We have a machine shop that manufactures racks for us to factory specs at a DRASTICALLY reduced price when compared to factory pricing.

 

It is actually cheaper to go from 90 tools to 240, than going from 90 to say 120, then at a later date 120 to 240. WHy? Double the service charge. And the time it takes to go from 90 to 240 is about the same as it woudl be to go from 120 to 240. Both cases are about a half day service charge give or take.

[GoetzInd]

Will this be enough for ya?