Running a horizontal machine

[Newbeeee™]

Holy bananas does that setup look expensive.

 

Mike

Don't ask....Just DON'T ask.

You know that if you have to ask, you just can't afford it

[mkd]

.....running repeat jobs through but the biggest hangup there is setting up tooling (putting tools in holders). The fixtures don't take much time to set up and they are all located on the tombstones via pins. When doing critical work with tight tolerances the first article setup is pretty demanding and the process is walked through the machining and wear offsets are dialed for all tools.

one simple concept for tool holders would be frozen tooling (no, not a new kinda shrink fit).

you could designate T1 thru T40 with common cutters used through out your product mix.(edit:) that would remain available and unchanged in magazine.

then designate T41 thru T60 as specials to be changed per job.

the tools that are changed in and out are stored (frozen) with fixturing. so investing in tool assemblies would be an upfront cost.

jm2c

Edited December 19, 2013 by mkd

[Colin Gilchrist]

one simple concept for tool holders would be frozen tooling (no, not a new kinda shrink fit).

you could designate T1 thru T40 with common cutters used through out your product mix.

then designate T41 thru T60 as specials to be changed per job.

the tools that are changed in and out are stored (frozen) with fixturing. so investing in tool assemblies would be an upfront cost.

jm2c

 

I have a friend that specializes in "Cell Setup and Management". His specialty is setting up Fastem systems for managing the tools and pallet pools. Having dedicated Tools that are grouped together using Tool Life Management, and other dedicated (single) tools is so important.

 

Ideally you would have dedicated tools that always remain setup in your carousel, so that you can just program with them and not worry about defining them, or setting them up on the machine. He was able to maintain about a 96% spindle utilization rate, with one horizontal machine, using a pool of pallets with the Fastem system to do the job scheduling. To get that rate, they were doing mostly repeat jobs, but he is still able to program a one-off, or small job run, and schedule it using the cell management software.

[Bob W.]

I only have the first 17 tools as standard and always in the machine. I might be running 4 different projects through the machine at any given time so the other pockets get used up pretty fast with drills, taps, other cutters, etc... I only have 60 tools on the machine. I really wanted to get the 137 tool magazine but I had to draw the line cost-wise. Next machine will have a huge tool magazine but the budget just wasn't there. I figured the rotary table was a better investment at the time and I'd do the same again.

[Guest]

We're doing a high machine and pallet count FMS on the West Coast, it will have 2 RGV's in case one goes down and also so that we can take one out of service for maintenance and not bring the cell down.

 

When I'm with a customer and we're talking tools... I have buy the absolute most you can afford and 120 is MINIMUM I would reccommend on an HMC unless you could NEVER forsee using tool life management and running high tool count parts.

 

JM2CFWIW

[Zoffen]

i have 120 in our variaxis cell. Only got about 10 pockets full but i can already tell im gonna need more! lol

Get as many as you can!

[Chris Rizzo]

I hear ya Bob, with job shop work you put all sorts of time and r&d into a project, and when it's done it's done. Your "I" in the ROI starts all over again with every job, and your past part might as well be sitting on the bottom of the river: you don't get to amortize (and enjoy) the time and effort over a production run. Only to start the whole process over again with the next project. And repeat.

 

You do some really interesting work and are a smart guy so I could see it being invigorating though....

 

M2C on your question, it's the tools that kill ya, and are reachable hanging fruit. My goal is to never have to dig for a tool, collet, holder, wrench etc etc. Every tool isn't in a cabinet, but in a holder with a tag. It's offset marked and ready to be loaded into a machine. A low-tech magnet board / list / hang tag on the machine with what tools are in the machine.

 

hth

[Bob W.]

You do some really interesting work and are a smart guy so I could see it being invigorating though....

 

It used to be, now it just wears me out :-) I want more production work because that stuff is less work for more pay. Just have to feed the beast and make sure I don't run out of tools :-)

[Oscar R.]

Bob, first thing that comes to mind... reduce the need to design, program, and machine fixtures by getting as much of your part machined away in fewer setups.

Think 5 sided machining.

 

This might help getting you going in the right direction, idea wise.

 

[GoetzInd]

Those 5 axis tombstones look pretty cool. Painfully slow though.

 

Mike

[crazy^millman]

Mike they have very good torque and I have been in the place where they are made. Some very sharp guys at KME. Seems slow, but you are moving on the next part while it is indexing the 1st one or 2nd or 3rd one. Huge time saving in their set-ups. All American made as well.

[Oscar R.]

Painfully slow though.

 

Mike

 

Compared to the painfully slow process of designing, programming, and machining extra fixtures... I'll take this little rotary any day.

 

Those 5 axis tombstones look pretty cool.

 

Mike

 

Yup, pretty cool.

[GoetzInd]

Compared to the painfully slow process of designing, programming, and machining extra fixtures... I'll take this little rotary any day.

 

I agree 100%.

 

But in the low volumes I would stick to the regular single table on table set up. A lot simpler programming and setup.

 

Also, in Bob's case, he is already utilizing a full 5 setup on their HMC.

 

Mike

[Bob W.]

I don't really see the value in those for my application. With a 4th axis horizontal mill I can make 95% of the work I do in two setups and for the other 5% I can do them on my Koma rotary that would blow the doors off that for speed. Fixtures would still need to be made for that setup as well, only those fixtures would be holding one part each instead of 5-10 parts. I would much rather invest in a second Koma so I can run 5-axis on both pallets than buy one of those. Very innovative product but it misses the mark for me. It would have a very specific application.

 

Chris's idea of adding tool holders is a good one. I know there are $35 CAT40 ER holders out there that are cheap Chinese pieces of junk but they would work fine for holding drills and taps and at $35 each I could buy several dozen without breaking the bank. I also like Joe's idea of developing a standard fixture blank and having them on hand for quick fixture fabrication. I have done a bit of this in the past but on a small scale. Another item I am pursuing is the Schunk VeroS zero point clamping system. If I were to outfit ALL of my machine tables and tombstones with these flexibility would be huge but at a steep price.

 

The real killer right now is many of the jobs coming in will be repeat jobs but this will be my first run with many of them. Developing quality processes and fixtures is time well spent but it makes a logjam of my schedule/ work flow. On the second and third runs of these jobs we are making 2X the rate as compared to the first run. Pretty typical I guess but frustrating when it seems like 80% of my work is first run :-)

[Guyinthedesert]

Chinese tool holders??? At $35 ea, after they've F%@#!$ up your spindle, how much have you saved?

 

 

The other day I needed a little tap handle. I went up to the hardware store and bought one, it was a General Tool. Got back, opened the box and threw it straight into the trash. Completely unusable POS. Guess where it was made?

[Watcher]

Chinese: Whenever I can, I avoid them. Yes, it is for ideology.

 

The problem is that sometimes is hard to know the source...

[cincy k]

If you are looking for an inexpensive nice tool holder take a look at Mari Tool. They make all kinds of styles of holders, are made in the states and are nice quality. I use these holders for HSS drills, taps, chamfer mills and non critical tools.

 

Another great investment is the zero point clamping systems as you had mentioned. If you need something on a tighter budget or need vises too take a look at orange vise company. Look through the examples on his site. It's a very good brain exercise. With one vise base you can use it as a single station, dual station or mount fixture plates to the main base. I bought four of these a few months ago and have two vises spread at 10" centers where i can swap a 20" x 20" plate in a couple minutes and repeats very well. Then you can change over quickly to vise work.

 

If you go to a system like Jergens ball lock or similar I would recommend the MPower system as it pulls the locator from the receiver as it is loosened. This is pretty critical for horizontal applications where the weight of a subplate is hanging on the locator.

[Joe788]

Chris's idea of adding tool holders is a good one. I know there are $35 CAT40 ER holders out there that are cheap Chinese pieces of junk but they would work fine for holding drills and taps and at $35 each I could buy several dozen without breaking the bank. I also like Joe's idea of developing a standard fixture blank and having them on hand for quick fixture fabrication. I have done a bit of this in the past but on a small scale. Another item I am pursuing is the Schunk VeroS zero point clamping system. If I were to outfit ALL of my machine tables and tombstones with these flexibility would be huge but at a steep price.

 

 

Bob, when you said swapping out tools earlier, did you mean actually changing tools in their holders? Or just popping holders in and out of the magazine? If the former, you definitely need to get tons of dedicated holders. Techniks is my favorite brand. ER holders are less than $100 when bought in quantity, and the quality is excellent. (Make sure you get the Taiwan holders, not their cheaper Chinese SIMIS line). We have some jobs that require swapping 40 tools out of the magazine - and having those tools sitting in a cart right next to the machine makes things go A LOT easier.

 

I have the same dilemma with the zero point systems out there. I'd love to have them, but I can't justify spending $20,$30,$40,000 dollars on something that's only going to save a tiny bit of time. It takes 1 minute or so to remove the four socket head cap screws and pop off a fixture plate. Here's part of the active "fixture wall" for just one machine. At some point they're gonna go in a huge Lista cabinet. We just 5Sed over 2,000lbs of old fixtures too.

 

 

How are you finding your offsets? You can put a block in your post that will calculate the orientation and location of all your TPlanes, and output the G10s.

[GoetzInd]

What are the top secret blurred out parts Joe?

 

Mike

[Bob W.]

Bob, when you said swapping out tools earlier, did you mean actually changing tools in their holders? Or just popping holders in and out of the magazine

 

How are you finding your offsets? You can put a block in your post that will calculate the orientation and location of all your TPlanes, and output the G10s.

 

Yes, sourcing the tools and loading them into holders. Loading tools into the machine is a piece of cake and the machine sets the tools by itself the first time they are used. Having at least the drills and taps in dedicated holders would be a huge plus. I rarely probe offsets on the machine. I run DFO and I enter the coordinates in a manual entry toolpath in Mastercam. I have a standard template where I just enter XYZB© and it populates the two G10 lines for DFO. If it is a second op and I need extreme accuracy I will probe on the machine and update the values in the program header. It takes less than 5 minutes.

[Bob W.]

Chinese tool holders??? At $35 ea, after they've F%@#!$ up your spindle, how much have you saved?

 

This is definitely a concern. Would they screw up the machine due to balance or taper accuracy, or both? Drills and taps rarely run above 5k rpm so balance shouldn't be an issue.

[Oscar R.]

This is a pallet changing machine and we rarely set zeros in the machine and the machine automatically sets tool lengths. Most of the time is taken by programming and setting up first run jobs since we are still building business around this machine. We are getting better at running repeat jobs through but the biggest hangup there is setting up tooling (putting tools in holders). The fixtures don't take much time to set up and they are all located on the tombstones via pins. When doing critical work with tight tolerances the first article setup is pretty demanding and the process is walked through the machining and wear offsets are dialed for all tools.

 

What is killing me the most is designing processes for the first run of new jobs. This includes fixture design, fabrication, part programming, and first run through the machine. The repeat jobs we pretty much nail but we are always taking on new work and it is hard to keep up in that respect.

 

Bob, to me these two posts say a lot.

Getting extra toolholders and designing, programming, and machining fixtures for all or most of you're new jobs is great, if that's the direction you want to go in. And that really is the thing here... which direction you want to go in.

 

But if you're going to go in that direction than it seems to me that you're going to have bring on some support employees to help with getting all this done.

If you have a lot of new jobs coming in and you're having a hard time keeping up, to me, that's a good problem to have.

Maybe it's just time to bite the bullet and bring in some good help?

[Guyinthedesert]

This is definitely a concern. Would they screw up the machine due to balance or taper accuracy, or both? Drills and taps rarely run above 5k rpm so balance shouldn't be an issue.

 

Balance would be a concern. Taper accuracy would be too, especially if the tools stick, which could easily screw up your toolchanger.

 

We have gotten some Chinese material in here over the last few years. Horrible to work with. I would really be concerned with the quality of the material, and the heat treatment. I just built a fixture last month, it has four small clamps with 1/4-20 SHCS. I picked up a whole box of them at the hardware store. We're only snuggung these down with a tee handle wrench, but the heads keep popping off. Total PITA. I looked at the box, guess where they're made?

[Bob W.]

Maybe it's just time to bite the bullet and bring in some good help?

 

Trust me, I have been looking. Where does one find a guy that can efficiently program a horizontal machine for prototype and production, and do 5-axis as well? They are extremely hard to find and if the right person walked in the door tomorrow I'd hire them in a second. Problem is I am stretched thin and finding someone that can take on some of MY workload is difficult. They are out there no doubt but they are in secure jobs doing this for someone else...

 

Hiring someone that is green yet motivated is an option but training would consume a ton of my time which is already in short supply.

[Joe788]

They are out there no doubt but they are in secure jobs doing this for someone else...

 

My experience is that they are out there - already making more money than I am.

 

What about finding somebody who's only got experience with 3 axis VMC type stuff - and then just handing off all of your PS-95 and Haas work, so you can focus on the horizontals?