Tool management software reccomendations.

[specv]

Hello all,

We are researching different software to handle our tool set-ups, we have a large toolcrib with well over 2500 tools set up at any given time. 

 

We are not looking for a vending/inventory software, we already have that. We are looking for something that interfaces with MC and our Zoller. 

I would like to consolidate similar set-ups and manage what/where tools are set-up.

 

The 4 we are looking at are 

Zoller

Wintool

TDM

and Cribware

 

What do you have and what are the pros/cons?

[Colin Gilchrist]

I've got some experience with TDM. We were implementing it at Boeing to interface with Catia, Mastercam, and Vericut. It worked really well for what we needed, but it was pricey. That said, we had a whole Tool Crib of guys using it. I think we had something like 4-5 "tool setters" and a manager. Plus something like 200+ CNC Programmers, spread across multiple locations. (We actually had multiple cribs too, but the smaller cribs only had 1-2 guys setting tools.)

 

Besides the price, it does take a fair amount of training and setup at the plant. We ended up contracting with TDM to come in and setup the system. I know it took roughly a year to setup, and most likely several hundred thousand dollars for implementation. (But keep in mind we had a metric crap ton of users...)

 

Cons: price, but not much else.

Pros: highly configurable. They also sell different "modules", so you only have to get what you want. (No ordering system if you don't want it.) We were able to have a "tool assembly" that could be used anywhere in the shop. RFID tags were used with GPS positioning inside the plant. We could literally ping every tool on a 5-10 minute cycle, and find a specific tool located anywhere in the building. Super slick, but it also requires going "all the way" with the implementation. Once that is done though, you could run Tool # 5482 on Machine 30 in the morning, move it to Machine 112 at lunch, and then shuttle it over to Machine 55 at the start of 2nd shift, where it might remain for 3 days of use.

[specv]

Colin, how well do tools import and export from mastercam from TDM?

[Colin Gilchrist]

Flawlessly, but it is (was at least) a manual process. With the system I helped install, it would build a new "Master" list on-the-fly, about every 20 minutes. The "Master" list had about 20,000 unique tool assemblies in it. (when I left anyway)

 

So when you were ready, you pressed a button in the software module, and it would build a "tool database". It took about a couple minutes to build 20K tools.

[specv]

that's good to know, thanks for the info Colin. Hoping to get the same info from users of other systems.

[zero_divide]

Not trying to plug my own product here....

But I am developing a low-cost solution for small shops that would work from within my HSMAdvisor Speed and Feed calc:

http://zero-divide.net/index.php?shell_id=151&article_id=4777&at=tool-inventory-advisor-workfloow-overview

Basic functions would be:

1) Multiple data entry points. One location to keep all the data.

1) Alerting users of inventory changes. (Inventory changes made on one computer are visible to other computers)

2) Adding tools to Order Request

3) Generating and Exporting Order Request forms

4) Restocking requested tools when they are delivered.

 

I am planing to make it talk to MC too through HSMAdvisor hook that I am also developing now.

Quite a but more functionality is in the pipeline.

 

I was just wondering what small shops would need and how better to cater to those needs....

 

If this sounds like someone could use it, this is the chance to get exactly what you need and get it for free (companies/individuals who collaborate during development get stuff for free)

Really open to any crazy ideas now.

Would be thankful for feedback.

[Watcher]

We use WinTool here...

 

Pros:

 

• Price competitive
• Good functionality, not bloated and simple to use / Fast performance
• Clients/Viewers for shopfloor are free (They used to cost an arm and a leg in TDM - Not sure if they have a free version now)
• Good CAD/CAM/ERP interfaces
• Good reporting module / Tool Lists
• Inventary module once well configured and rules are followed, makes you very efficient
• Excellent support
• Drawings are very good
• Robust database / design
• Very modular and comprehensive - They can offer almost every core functionality available in TDM

 

Cons:

• Presseter module (Zoller) is confuse, hard to use / Poor UI - We pay for its maintenance but it hasn´t changed much for years. We don´t use it anymore.
• No free lunch - Want an enhancement request implemented or a report fixed, pay for it if you can´t fix them yourself. Or wait until it gets up on the priority list (Not much different from many companies but they take this too seriously) - See previous point.

We´ve never spent a single penny but our annual maintenance to get an enhancement request implemented in VERICUT for example. Things far more complex than a tool management option. With WinTool is the inverse: I don´t recall get a single enhancement we asked for being implemented without paying for it aside.

 

I think it´s important to share this because we´re happy with their product, it´s an excellent product overall, but it´s always a frustration for me to have to pay to get even the simplest enhancement request put in the software, when we have things like the presseter module not getting any improvement but paying for it every year. I personally don´t like money wh0res in CAx business because when we ask for an enhancement we´re also giving them, for free, our ideas, and thus, benefiting other customers and even our competitors.

 

They´re all alike, so be careful to discuss these scenarios with the dealers of whichever option you pick. And put it on the maintenance contract.

[Watcher]

Zoller Solution is very recent (3 years - Not mature enough for a tooling solution IMHO) and extremelly focused in inventary and the connection with their own presseter software.

 

I wonder if it offers any interface with MC.

 

VERICUT can interface with Zoller software but I´ll tell you that it´s not what you probably need/are after. I don´t even see why people would ask for that if they knew all the troubles behind this option.

[specv]

I looked at the zoller software at IMTS 2014 and the interface with mastercam seamed like it would work well. I hope to find someone that actually has it and see how it works.

[themachinist]

I've seen a few of these topics here. Lately I've been working on a sort of asset/tool management software that is free and open source. I was wondering if you guys can tell me what you've paid on average for your system? What kind of features do you feel are missing? What features are most important to you?

[specv]

I have not purchased anything but the main thing for me is not having separate databases that cannot be synced together. if i have a tool library that is in mastercam and would like to make a zoller program i don't think its wise to have to enter all the data again into the zoller.

[Watcher]

I have not purchased anything but the main thing for me is not having separate databases that cannot be synced together. if i have a tool library that is in mastercam and would like to make a zoller program i don't think its wise to have to enter all the data again into the zoller.

 

Wintool and TDM for example can manage this. But as I said, I find the Zoller UI cumbersome in WinTool. For Mastercam I believe is pretty solid. Don´t know how it works in TDM.

[Colin Gilchrist]

I've seen a few of these topics here. Lately I've been working on a sort of asset/tool management software that is free and open source. I was wondering if you guys can tell me what you've paid on average for your system? What kind of features do you feel are missing? What features are most important to you?

 

Most systems of this type are expensive. I'm against using "free" or "open source" programs for a couple reasons. First, I want to have the option to pay someone to configure the software for my needs. I also want to be able to submit bugs, and know they are going to get fixed (either because I'm paying maintenance, or I'm paying a fee for a development request). The second thing I want available is training. Different levels of training are needed. Someone who is an admin of the system would need much more training than just a regular user. It is usually difficult or impossible to get quality training on an open source product. There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but I'm willing to pay good money for the right type of product.

[themachinist]

Most systems of this type are expensive. I'm against using "free" or "open source" programs for a couple reasons. First, I want to have the option to pay someone to configure the software for my needs. I also want to be able to submit bugs, and know they are going to get fixed (either because I'm paying maintenance, or I'm paying a fee for a development request). The second thing I want available is training. Different levels of training are needed. Someone who is an admin of the system would need much more training than just a regular user. It is usually difficult or impossible to get quality training on an open source product. There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but I'm willing to pay good money for the right type of product.

 

Oh! I meant free as in libre, not gratis (think free speech vs free beer). Anyone who chooses to use it has many freedoms granted by the license. However I plan to offer hosted solutions with maintenance included. Written training should be available in the documentation for free (gratis), and I'd also like to make videos if I can find a few dozen customers. 

 

Speaking of other open source projects: almost every major project is backed by a non-profit organization that provides or can refer you to paid support and training. If you pull some half finished project from Github you may not get support, but for instance, if you were switch your company to Linux you could fly in consultants to handle the transition, or if you are using a project like Open Office you can purchase professional services to develop new functionality.

[Watcher]

Oh! I meant free as in libre, not gratis (think free speech vs free beer). Anyone who chooses to use it has many freedoms granted by the license. However I plan to offer hosted solutions with maintenance included. Written training should be available in the documentation for free (gratis), and I'd also like to make videos if I can find a few dozen customers. 

 

Speaking of other open source projects: almost every major project is backed by a non-profit organization that provides or can refer you to paid support and training. If you pull some half finished project from Github you may not get support, but for instance, if you were switch your company to Linux you could fly in consultants to handle the transition, or if you are using a project like Open Office you can purchase professional services to develop new functionality.

 

Don´t take this to the personal side, because we all can see your will to share and help this community. I´ve come a long way developing internal stuff in the companies I worked for and when I left those companies no one cared to even maintain my applications, even though I left them the source.

 

What I mean is that it seems you don´t really realize the size of the effort that a tool management system is. I understand you can look at a database table and figure out everything about it, but to make something really usable for a shop and to provide all the infra Colin mentioned, it´s a massive effort. Someone working as a CNC Programmer part/full time can´t handle this without at least more two people coding and writing documentation. Tool management systems needs to be A LOT FLEXIBLE AND CONFIGURABLE to match the needs of each shop, it´s a lifetime effort.

 

I´ve been in your position many times and what I learned is that although I can code a lot of nice stuff, often this is not the best solution for my employers. So now I use my computer skills to work with the 'pros' to get bugs fixes, enhancement requests filled and to push the boundaries of their products by connecting the dots. I like to be in the intersection between IT and MFG, not always as the problem solver, but often as the problem proposer.

 

Again, please don´t get me wrong and don´t let the "blood in the eyes" to go away because of my over-realistic statements. I don´t know you and I might be underestimating your capacity by a large scale. My intention was just to share a few thoughts about what I learned from trying to solve all problems around me and what companies really need from a software supplier.

 

BTW:

 

I´d never recommend my employer to consider any externally hosted, open-source system, where our data would be stored.

[Watcher]

WinTool 2 Mastercam Interface: http://www.wintool.com/docs/flyer/WT-Mastercam-Interface-EN.pdf

[themachinist]

a bunch of stuff

 

After all that you could at least answer my question! 

 

What kind of features do you feel are missing? What features are most important to you?

[The Cathedral]

So WinTool and TDM seem to be the top runners right now. I have a few questions I hope someone can answer:

 

We're looking to start tracking and organizing the entire production side of a job. We want to know what tools are on what machine, what tools are used for a specific job, where these tools are stored (if they're not on the machine), how many of these tools we have in inventory, how often they are replaced, and have the ability to list out what needs to be replenished.

 

Is anyone using either of these systems to accomplish the whole spectrum of what I listed? How do you track your tools (barcode, RFID, honor)?

[crazy^millman]

So WinTool and TDM seem to be the top runners right now. I have a few questions I hope someone can answer:

 

We're looking to start tracking and organizing the entire production side of a job. We want to know what tools are on what machine, what tools are used for a specific job, where these tools are stored (if they're not on the machine), how many of these tools we have in inventory, how often they are replaced, and have the ability to list out what needs to be replenished.

 

Is anyone using either of these systems to accomplish the whole spectrum of what I listed? How do you track your tools (barcode, RFID, honor)?

 

From what I understand I believe both are capable of that with add ons.

[Watcher]

Both are able to do it.

 

We have WinTool Logistics Module that takes care of all these tasks. We don't have RFID though. But it is supported for sure.

 

But in order to use the Logistics module well, we had to go through a lot of pain to have the necessary discipline. When I comes to your tooling logistics, software can help but the real difference comes from people's attitude towards the golden rules.

[Zoober]

So WinTool and TDM seem to be the top runners right now. I have a few questions I hope someone can answer:

 

We're looking to start tracking and organizing the entire production side of a job. We want to know what tools are on what machine, what tools are used for a specific job, where these tools are stored (if they're not on the machine), how many of these tools we have in inventory, how often they are replaced, and have the ability to list out what needs to be replenished.

 

Is anyone using either of these systems to accomplish the whole spectrum of what I listed? How do you track your tools (barcode, RFID, honor)?

I did all that with cribmaster. I had live tool libraries that I could bring into mastercam. Used RFID. Every machine was a crib, and had vending machines, a master tool crib, tool boss, etc. over 10,000 tools. All available to import directly into MCX.

Do a search here. I went into it in detail. It was a few years ago.

[specv]

Zoober, does Cribmaster interface with Zoller? that is also a must for us.

[Zoober]

Not sure. But being SQL based, I'm sure you could make it so, depending on Zoller's output. If it can talk to Mastercam....

[Watcher]

Not sure. But being SQL based, I'm sure you could make it so, depending on Zoller's output. If it can talk to Mastercam....

 

Zoller only talks to external systems through complex XML files. The tooling software has to generate the tool lists (or even for the presset of an individual tool) in this format, as well as the DXF files that will be shown on the presseter that will help the tool assembler.

 

Don´t even bother to try to make the two databases to talk to each other. It would be extremely complex and not worth to try. I mean it.

 

Besides, the reason why it´s file based is because every Zoller presseter (and others) is unique, as well the options you buy with them. So tooling software vendors make this to happen through files so they can customize the details for each customer in the master XML and go home in peace.

 

If it was SQL based, every customer would require a custom build.

[Watcher]

This is a typical tool list exported from WinTool that can be read by a Zoller presseter:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" standalone="yes"?>
<Data>
<SettingSheet>
<SettingSheetId>LF_M0151202</SettingSheetId>
<Name>BLOCO PRINCIPAL</Name>
<PartNo>LF_M0151202</PartNo>
<NCProgrammNo>M0151202</NCProgrammNo>
<FixtureDrawingFilePath>2183524-08</FixtureDrawingFilePath>
<Programmer>ADEMILSON</Programmer>
<MachineName>CUTMAX 2.1</MachineName>
<Adapter>
</Adapter>
<Machine>
</Machine>
<ToolList>
<ToolInList>
<Position>1</Position>
<Tool>
<ToolGroupTree>
<GroupID>WinTool</GroupID>
<Description>
</Description>
</ToolGroupTree>
<ToolGroup>
<GroupId>WinTool</GroupId>
</ToolGroup>
<ToolId>503588</ToolId>
<Description>FRESA C/ INS FACEADORA 160</Description>
<TNo>1</TNo>
<GraphicFile>503588.dxf</GraphicFile>
<GraphicGroup>WinTool</GraphicGroup>
<Weigth>0</Weigth>
<Lifetime>0</Lifetime>
<MagazinPosition>1</MagazinPosition>
<DuploNo>0</DuploNo>
<CollisionL1>0</CollisionL1>
<CollisionR2>0</CollisionR2>
<Adapter>
<AdapterId>7</AdapterId>
</Adapter>
<Step>
<Position>1</Position>
<CountEdges>8</CountEdges>
<CES>38</CES>
<Focus>FocusArea.1</Focus>
<XDiaMode>1</XDiaMode>
<ZNominal>+111.900</ZNominal>
<XNominal>+160.000</XNominal>
<RadiusNominal>  +2.000</RadiusNominal>
<MsrProgram OwnerTypeFullName="Zoller.Program.Program0000.Program0000">
</MsrProgram>
</Step>
<Step>
<Position>2</Position>
<CountEdges>8</CountEdges>
<CES>5</CES>
<Focus>FocusArea.1</Focus>
<XDiaMode>1</XDiaMode>
<ZNominal>+113.000</ZNominal>
<XNominal>+148.000</XNominal>
<MsrProgram OwnerTypeFullName="Zoller.Program.Program0000.Program0000">
</MsrProgram>
</Step>
</Tool>
</ToolInList>
</ToolList>
<ToolList>
<ToolInList>
<Position>2</Position>
<Tool>
<ToolGroupTree>
<GroupID>WinTool</GroupID>
<Description>
</Description>
</ToolGroupTree>
<ToolGroup>
<GroupId>WinTool</GroupId>
</ToolGroup>
<ToolId>503589</ToolId>
<Description>CORPO BROCA KSEM 37,0x220</Description>
<TNo>2</TNo>
<GraphicFile>503589.dxf</GraphicFile>
<GraphicGroup>WinTool</GraphicGroup>
<Weigth>0</Weigth>
<Lifetime>0</Lifetime>
<RemainingLifetime>0</RemainingLifetime>
<MagazinPosition>2</MagazinPosition>
<DuploNo>0</DuploNo>
<CollisionL1>223</CollisionL1>
<CollisionR2>59</CollisionR2>
<Tag>0</Tag>
<Adapter>
<AdapterId>7</AdapterId>
</Adapter>
<Step>
<Position>1</Position>
<CountEdges>2</CountEdges>
<CES>5</CES>
<Focus>FocusArea.1</Focus>
<XDiaMode>1</XDiaMode>
<ZNominal>+325.400</ZNominal>
<XNominal>  +0.500</XNominal>
<RadiusNominal>  +0.000</RadiusNominal>
<MsrProgram OwnerTypeFullName="Zoller.Program.Program0000.Program0000">
</MsrProgram>
</Step>
<Step>
<Position>2</Position>
<CountEdges>2</CountEdges>
<CES>7</CES>
<Focus>FocusArea.1</Focus>
<XDiaMode>1</XDiaMode>
<ZNominal>+319.000</ZNominal>
<XNominal> +37.000</XNominal>
<MsrProgram OwnerTypeFullName="Zoller.Program.Program0000.Program0000">
</MsrProgram>
</Step>
</Tool>
</ToolInList>
</ToolList>
<ToolList>
<ToolInList>
<Position>3</Position>
<Tool>
<ToolGroupTree>
<GroupID>WinTool</GroupID>
<Description>
</Description>
</ToolGroupTree>
<ToolGroup>
<GroupId>WinTool</GroupId>
</ToolGroup>
<ToolId>503590</ToolId>
<Description>ESCAREADOR HSS 31.3x60GR</Description>
<TNo>3</TNo>
<GraphicFile>503590.dxf</GraphicFile>
<GraphicGroup>WinTool</GraphicGroup>
<Weigth>0</Weigth>
<Lifetime>0</Lifetime>
<MagazinPosition>3</MagazinPosition>
<DuploNo>0</DuploNo>
<CollisionL1>59</CollisionL1>
<CollisionR2>32</CollisionR2>
<Adapter>
<AdapterId>7</AdapterId>
</Adapter>
<Step>
<Position>1</Position>
<CountEdges>8</CountEdges>
<Focus>FocusArea.1</Focus>
<XDiaMode>1</XDiaMode>
<ZNominal>+219.000</ZNominal>
<XNominal> +10.000</XNominal>
<RadiusNominal>  +0.000</RadiusNominal>
<Angle1Nominal> +30.000</Angle1Nominal>
<MsrProgram OwnerTypeFullName="Zoller.Program.Program0017.Program0017">
</MsrProgram>
</Step>
</Tool>
</ToolInList>
</ToolList>
<ToolList>
<ToolInList>
<Position>4</Position>
<Tool>
<ToolGroupTree>
<GroupID>WinTool</GroupID>
<Description>
</Description>
</ToolGroupTree>
<ToolGroup>
<GroupId>WinTool</GroupId>
</ToolGroup>
<ToolId>503591</ToolId>
<Description>FRESA DE ROSCAR 32-8UN</Description>
<TNo>4</TNo>
<GraphicFile>503591.dxf</GraphicFile>
<GraphicGroup>WinTool</GraphicGroup>
<Weigth>1</Weigth>
<Lifetime>0</Lifetime>
<MagazinPosition>4</MagazinPosition>
<DuploNo>0</DuploNo>
<CollisionL1>70</CollisionL1>
<CollisionR2>32</CollisionR2>
<Adapter>
<AdapterId>7</AdapterId>
</Adapter>
<Step>
<Position>1</Position>
<CountEdges>5</CountEdges>
<CES>21</CES>
<Focus>FocusArea.1</Focus>
<XDiaMode>1</XDiaMode>
<ZNominal>+180.000</ZNominal>
<XNominal> +32.000</XNominal>
<RadiusNominal>  +0.000</RadiusNominal>
<MsrProgram OwnerTypeFullName="Zoller.Program.Program0000.Program0000">
</MsrProgram>
</Step>
</Tool>
</ToolInList>
</ToolList>
<ToolList>
<ToolInList>
<Position>5</Position>
<Tool>
<ToolGroupTree>
<GroupID>WinTool</GroupID>
<Description>
</Description>
</ToolGroupTree>
<ToolGroup>
<GroupId>WinTool</GroupId>
</ToolGroup>
<ToolId>503592</ToolId>
<Description>CORPO BROCA KSEM 19,0x72</Description>
<TNo>5</TNo>
<GraphicFile>503592.dxf</GraphicFile>
<GraphicGroup>WinTool</GraphicGroup>
<Weigth>0</Weigth>
<Lifetime>0</Lifetime>
<MagazinPosition>5</MagazinPosition>
<DuploNo>0</DuploNo>
<CollisionL1>76</CollisionL1>
<CollisionR2>25</CollisionR2>
<Adapter>
<AdapterId>7</AdapterId>
</Adapter>
<Step>
<Position>1</Position>
<CountEdges>2</CountEdges>
<CES>5</CES>
<Focus>FocusArea.1</Focus>
<XDiaMode>1</XDiaMode>
<ZNominal>+166.000</ZNominal>
<XNominal>  +0.500</XNominal>
<RadiusNominal>  +0.000</RadiusNominal>
<MsrProgram OwnerTypeFullName="Zoller.Program.Program0000.Program0000">
</MsrProgram>
</Step>
<Step>
<Position>2</Position>
<CES>7</CES>
<Focus>FocusArea.1</Focus>
<XDiaMode>1</XDiaMode>
<ZNominal>+163.000</ZNominal>
<XNominal> +19.000</XNominal>
<MsrProgram OwnerTypeFullName="Zoller.Program.Program0000.Program0000">
</MsrProgram>
</Step>
</Tool>
</ToolInList>
</ToolList>
<ToolList>
<ToolInList>
<Position>6</Position>
<Tool>
<ToolGroupTree>
<GroupID>WinTool</GroupID>
<Description>
</Description>
</ToolGroupTree>
<ToolGroup>
<GroupId>WinTool</GroupId>
</ToolGroup>
<ToolId>503593</ToolId>
<Description>FRESA C/ INS  FURA/CORTA 16x50</Description>
<TNo>6</TNo>
<GraphicFile>503593.dxf</GraphicFile>
<GraphicGroup>WinTool</GraphicGroup>
<Weigth>0</Weigth>
<Lifetime>0</Lifetime>
<MagazinPosition>6</MagazinPosition>
<DuploNo>0</DuploNo>
<CollisionL1>50</CollisionL1>
<CollisionR2>16</CollisionR2>
<Adapter>
<AdapterId>7</AdapterId>
</Adapter>
<Step>
<Position>1</Position>
<CountEdges>2</CountEdges>
<CES>21</CES>
<Focus>FocusArea.1</Focus>
<XDiaMode>1</XDiaMode>
<ZNominal>+163.000</ZNominal>
<XNominal> +16.000</XNominal>
<RadiusNominal>  +0.000</RadiusNominal>
<TwistAngle>100</TwistAngle>
<MsrProgram OwnerTypeFullName="Zoller.Program.Program0000.Program0000">
</MsrProgram>
</Step>
</Tool>
</ToolInList>
</ToolList>
<ToolList>
<ToolInList>
<Position>7</Position>
<Tool>
<ToolGroupTree>
<GroupID>WinTool</GroupID>
<Description>
</Description>
</ToolGroupTree>
<ToolGroup>
<GroupId>WinTool</GroupId>
</ToolGroup>
<ToolId>503594</ToolId>
<Description>BARRA MICROM CMA 023 Ø43/54</Description>
<TNo>7</TNo>
<GraphicFile>503594.dxf</GraphicFile>
<GraphicGroup>WinTool</GraphicGroup>
<Weigth>0</Weigth>
<Lifetime>0</Lifetime>
<MagazinPosition>7</MagazinPosition>
<DuploNo>0</DuploNo>
<CollisionL1>0</CollisionL1>
<CollisionR2>0</CollisionR2>
<Adapter>
<AdapterId>7</AdapterId>
</Adapter>
<Step>
<Position>1</Position>
<CountEdges>1</CountEdges>
<CES>21</CES>
<Focus>FocusArea.1</Focus>
<XDiaMode>1</XDiaMode>
<ZNominal>+111.500</ZNominal>
<XNominal> +52.000</XNominal>
<RadiusNominal>  +0.200</RadiusNominal>
<MsrProgram OwnerTypeFullName="Zoller.Program.Program0000.Program0000">
</MsrProgram>
</Step>
</Tool>
</ToolInList>
</ToolList>
</SettingSheet>
</Data>

Not a piece of cake IMHO.