Okuma LB3000EX-II/800-MYW vs Harding Conquest H51

[DTHOMSON]

We are looking at possibly replacing a 1998 Hardinge Super Precision T-42 with Big Bore option, live tooling and sub-spindle. We have received quotes on a Hardinge Conquest T-51 that has sub spindle, live tooling and a Y Axis and Mitsubishi M720V control. A while ago we received a quote for an Okuma LB3000EX-II/800-MYW with similar features. I am being told the Y axis on the Okuma functions differently but I'm not sure if one is better over the other.  We have 2 Hardinge Conquest lathes from the 1998 vintage and an Okuma Genos 250 that is 2 yrs old.  Has anyone had experience with these? Pro? Con? Thanks for you comments.

[gcode]

There are 2 basic versions of Y axis lathes

 

One is called a virtual Y axis. The Y axis motion is created by software controlling the X and Z axis (edit .... and a wedge per T Malena)  to create y axis motion

 

The other type is where the machine has a real Y axis.

This is the superior way to do it, but is more expensive.

 

I'm not familiar with either of these machines, but I'd ask the sales rep which type each machine has

[T_MALENA]

The Okuma uses a "wedge" as a y-axis.   So when you cut a slot on centerline of the part face you position in x & z, cut in x-axis. if you move above or below center(y-axis) you'd be cutting in y-axis(on the screen) BUT you are actually moving the y-axis wedge & x-axis at the same time. Carefully look at your parts you plan to run through the Okuma, when you try to cut small ID contours you'll run out of y- travel.  The Okuma is a great machine. You just need to know what the constraints are.

[T_MALENA]

Also double check pricing, size etc. between the LB3000 & LB4000.  I think the two have almost the same footprint, the 4000 opens up your part size, HP & tooling options over the 3000...but only costs a little more.

[Mr. M]

The LB4000 is not available in an MYW configuration IIRC. Only the LB2000 aND the LB3000 can be had with the sub I think. I had good success with the LB's I ran in the past. I never ran the Hardinge.

[GoetzInd]

We just brought in an LB-3000 w/ Y axis for our tool room. Great machine so far.

 

Mike

[SlaveCam]

There are 2 basic versions of Y axis lathes

 

One is called a virtual Y axis. The Y axis motion is created by software controlling the X and Z axis (edit .... and a wedge per T Malena)  to create y axis motion

 

I thought virtual Y axis means controlling X and C so that you enter X as X and Y as C and the control converts them to polar coordinates X and C.

[Sticky]

The above Y axis explanations aren't really correct.

 

A "compound" Y axis, is a individual linear axis, that is NOT perpendicular to the X axis. To command Y axis motion , both the X, and the Y axis move simultaneously to create the linear Y motion.

 

A "true" Y axis, is a linear axis that is strictly perpendicular to the X axis. To command Y axis motion, only the Y axis slide moves.

[DTHOMSON]

Thank You all for your comments. The Y axis wedge on the Okuma is something I'm not familiar with so I appreciate your comments. Has anyone had experience with the Mitsubishi Control? My experience was on a Wire EDM 15 years ago but not since or ever on a lathe. Thanks again!

[Mr. M]

I think if you like Fanuc you will like the Mits. I definitely prefer the OSP control

[chris m]

We have [2] LB3000EX-MY and [1] LB3000EX-MYW, and I think that they, and all of my other Okuma lathes, are the nuts. Good size, good power, great control, good M-tool power and RPM, ZERO maintenance.

 

They are, as was stated above, "compound" Y-axis machines, which does limit Y axis travel toward the X negative limit (as stated above) because the X moves down as the Y moves down, but you won't care unless you are cutting inside of little parts, or trying to get all the way around the outside of big parts.

 

My only experience with Hardinge CNC lathes is [2] 1995-ish Super Precision machines, and I thought they were under-powered and overly sensitive compared to our Okumas.

 

My only experience with Mits CNC controls is a 2000-ish Mori and the operation / programming is fine, essentially a Fanuc; the parameters / control architecture sucks.

 

C

[The Cathedral]

We have a couple LBs, including an LB4000EXII with the wedge Y and programmable tailstock but not sub. It's an excellent machine, powerful and stable. The two biggest drawbacks I see with it is the number of tools it holds and the live toolholders (I guess I wish it were another Multus). Also, the stickout of your live tooling is limited by the sheetmetal. But we've done some pretty crazy parts on the machine and it always works out. 

 

I've had experience with Mitsu controls on our Swiss machines. My opinion echoes Chris ^^

[Brad Lisle]

We distribute both, Okuma and Hardinge. My opinion might be a little bias though since I have spent a great deal on Okuma's. Here are a few things to keep in mind.

Pros for the Hardinge Conquest H51-SP:

• True independent Y-axis, a huge benefit if doing a lot of Y-axis milling
• built in nose collet, I don't personally see this as an advantage because I would be afraid of someone bumping into the spindle face, then your chuck would not mount proper without regrinding the spindle taper. But some swear by it. saves time in setups
• Super Precision holds amazing accuracies, partially due to glass scales
• Great for hard turning applications
• 8000 rpm live tooling

Pros for Okuma LB-3000EX-MYW:

• OSP control
• Program size and storage
• Advanced One touch IGF (optional conversational programming)
• 40/30 (30 min/cont) HP for Big Bore option or 30/20 for Standard Bore and Super Big Bore
• 9.5/5.5 (20 min/cont) HP for live tooling
• Thermally stable

Overall both are great machines. You really can't go wrong with either. With glass scales added to the Okuma you could expect same accuracies as the H51-SP, but even without scales, the Okuma holds incredibly tight tolerances. What type of tolerances are you trying to hold? less than .0005"? on a majority of features? We have customers running 24/7 holding +/-.0002 on select features without scales. Personally I would buy the Okuma without even thinking twice.

[Goldorak]

we own an LB3000EX since last year, i really love this machine , very accurate fast and well built but, i hate the new IGF, i still prefer une mastercam for programming

 

the down side , the chuck is a bit weak and struggle to hold big and long parts without the tail stock ( compare to our old Cadet with the same seize of chuck )

 

 

the OSP300L control is simply amazing compare to the Fanuc i-series on our Hyundai WIA 

[chris m]

 

 

With glass scales added to the Okuma you could expect same accuracies as the H51-SP, but even without scales, the Okuma holds incredibly tight tolerances. What type of tolerances are you trying to hold? less than .0005"? on a majority of features? We have customers running 24/7 holding +/-.0002 on select features without scales. Personally I would buy the Okuma without even thinking twice.

 

Has Hardinge made improvements to their "super precision" system? We had [2] 1997 Conquest Super Precision machines and they were nothing special.

 

We hold .0003 total tolerance on diameters all day long with LB3000EX-BB, LB3000EX-MY, and LB3000EX-MYW (hell, on L370BB from 2001).

 

Okuma all the way on this

[Goldorak]

The thermal compensation on the LB3000EX is impressive

 

i shut down the machine at the end of my shift, then in the morning i simply turn it on , without any kind of homing, push the green button and the first part is within .0002 than the last one 12h before

 

it's also compensate for room temperature, we can have over 20F difference between 7AM and 5PM  

[LOADER MAN]

We have two lb 3000's one with osp200 and one with osp300. They are great lathes ,they hold .0002 all day.There are a few quirks to them though.The main problem is tool clearance. Without a collet chuck its impossible to get live tooling near the main spindle.But we also do alot of milling on ours so it may just be my problem with the parts we quote.The ability to finish a part on the sub is priceless . Not having to make a second op on the main and using the sub to bar pull stock allows you to run constant parts for the length of bar,usually 36" to 48" bar. 

[Brad Lisle]

Has Hardinge made improvements to their "super precision" system? We had [2] 1997 Conquest Super Precision machines and they were nothing special.

 

We hold .0003 total tolerance on diameters all day long with LB3000EX-BB, LB3000EX-MY, and LB3000EX-MYW (hell, on L370BB from 2001).

 

Okuma all the way on this

Chris,

 

Unfortunately, I have not had enough time on the new Hardinge to give an accurate opinion. I have been told that it is based of a newer beefier design concept and it is much better than before. But for me that is all hearsay until I can prove otherwise.