Our 1st 5 axis

[jas6142]

Looking at getting our 1st 5 axis.  Looking at both the dmu 50 and hermle c400 both with pallet changers, looking for opinions of either one.  We have a few mori lathes but are older so not sure what to expect. and hermle never been around except at imts. 

[gcode]

Personally, I'm an Okuma guy.

We bought an Okuma MU1000H  in 2013 and have run it hard 24 hours a day 6 days a week for a decade.

It has been such a good machine we bought a 2nd one in 2023.

With a 170 station tool magazine and a 2 station pallet setup they are consistently the most

productive machines in the plant.  A 6 station pallet changer is available for these, but that 

would take up too much space for us. We struggled to find room for the 2nd machine.

They build vertical trunnion machines as well from 4000mm tables to 8000mm.

Okuma 5 axis machines

[gcode]

I moved to the Main forum where it will get more eyeballs.

I have no experience with Mori/DMG mills though I've heard stories about reliability.

We have a 2008 Mori NT6000 5X lathe and the service has been good, though the wait for an available

service tech has been lengthy in some cases.

 

 

[rgrin]

Here are some links to a couple of previous topics regarding this subject

New 5axis machine questions

New 5x mills

The DMU 50 and C400 are very different beasts as far as workspace and floor space.  Are you guys considering getting both at the same time or comparing one against the other.

 

IDK much about the DMU but previously Mori's service here in the Midwest has been lackluster.

We have a C400 without automation and it's been a good/accurate machine.  But it really hasn't been pushed hard for production work.  I recall a previous quote for a C42 with a pallet pool being pretty ludicrously expensive compared to other options.

[jas6142]

We are looking at one vs the other. Doesn't seem to me that i can find alot of negative things on the internet about hermle but mori i sure can.  So wasn't sure how they really were anymore , We are in the midwest as well. We have 4 of their nlx lathes haven't needed service from them since the transition to them being on their own so not sure how it is anymore to be fair.  It wasnt fast getting a quote for the machine if that is any indication.   That was my next question  is going to their non performance line worth it.  The c400 was pretty fair on the price.  One thing we didnt like was the 18000 greased spindle, since we run alot of aluminum.

[rgrin]

I would agree that Hermles spindles is their weakspot. I'm not a fan of greased spindles and moving to their higher RPM air oil spindles loses alot of power.  Unfortunately, I can't compare their performance vs high performance as we don't have one of their high performance lines.  I also am not a huge fan of their automation as it's thru the main cabin door which kind of sucks from an ergonomics stand point.

If I had to pick my favorite MTBs right now, it would be Yasda, Makino, Matsuura, Hermle, and Okuma.  I think they all have their pros and cons and you just need to figure out which ones you prefer and which ones does the work you need it to do the best.

[JParis]

5 minutes ago, rgrin said:

I think they all have their pros and cons and you just need to figure out which ones you prefer and which ones does the work you need it to do the best.

Unfortunately, most of these kinds of decisions are based on $$$ instead of the things you note.

[rgrin]

I currently program and run a Yasda H40i with a 24 pallet pool.  Works well and we got at a very competitive price.  I find their software to be extremely lacking.

Makino has MAS-A5 software which is an extremely powerful production management tool.  Currently working with our local reseller to get a quote for a A61nx/A500z pallet pool line for a large upcoming project and very excited about.

Matsuura has been doing automated 5 axis forever.

I have personal experience with Hermles and they make a stout machine and have good service.  All of their machines are essentially the same, so any of their service techs can work on all of their lineup.

Okuma is probably the best bang for the buck MTB.  I would say they're almost as good as all of the others on the list, but they make up for it by also being insanely reliable and long lasting.  Not to say the others aren't tho....

[jas6142]

How do you find hermle's service to be?  yeah the automation layout  isnt my favorite either.

[rgrin]

1 minute ago, JParis said:

Unfortunately, most of these kinds of decisions are based on $$$ instead of the things you note.

Too true. Another thing is availability. You could be purchasing the most ballin machine for your part, but if it's a 10 month factory build....

Just now, jas6142 said:

How do you find hermle's service to be?  yeah the automation layout  isnt my favorite either.

Lol, I posted a follow up at the same time as this.  It has been pretty excellent for us.  I think it took 1 guy about 2 days to commission the c400 which is fairly impressive IMO

[gcode]

On 4/17/2024 at 7:57 AM, rgrin said:

Too true. Another thing is availability. You could be purchasing the most ballin machine for your part, but if it's a 10 month factory build....

True, We were looking at a monster Mitsui Seiki 5X trunnion machine (HU100-5XL) when I was referred to an Okuma MU100H by a couple of guys on this forum.

The Mitsui Seiki was an 18-24 month build. The Okuma was on the show room floor in North Carolina. As our need was yesterday, that pretty much sealed the deal.

It was a fortunate thing too, as the Okuma with it's OSP200 control and HSK125 spindle turned out to be a far better solution for the parts we are running on it.

 

 

[cncappsjames]

Support should be the #1 consideration when buying a 5-Axis machine. Much like a multi-tasking lathe support will make or break that machine. You could buy "the best" (whatever that is) machine but when the good for nothing AE shows up to train you, he (or she) has no clue about cutting parameters to utilize the machine to maximize it's capability, it's going to be on YOU to figure out. Oh sure, they'll tell you "... that's the CAM system's responsibility...", and it is, but only to a certain extent. When they cannot explain to you the role of point spacing, cut distance, and tolerance, and how it relates to machine performance, you ARE in for trouble.

[cncappsjames]

1 hour ago, rgrin said:

...

Matsuura has been doing automated 5 axis forever.

...

Matsuura has been palletizing 5-Axis machines since 1992. They (as did the majority of 5-Axis builders) left that toilet bowl design the Germans seem hell bent on using in the dust LONG ago. It's not the best design for a table/table kinematic machine. Trunion is the best for table/table.

[jas6142]

Support is the biggest concern with dmg without a doubt.  Matsuura mam-52v system looks like it it would fit the bill as well. Ill check on availability.  Seems like that is the biggest factor that we have been running into.

[cncappsjames]

8 minutes ago, jas6142 said:

Support is the biggest concern with dmg without a doubt.

I hear that A LOT.

They like Yamazen use their AE departments as a training ground for the sales department... and it shows. Few of their AE's here in the US are dedicated to that craft for any REAL span of time. That's just the reality. I do know of an AE at Mori that's been with them since the 90's and I'd expect his to be a good 5-Axis guy since he came form Makino but he doesn't go out in the field... so what good is all that experience if you as a customer don't have access to it.

[Kyle F]

19 hours ago, jas6142 said:

Matsuura mam-52v system looks like it it would fit the bill as well. Ill check on availability.  Seems like that is the biggest factor that we have been running into.

At my shop we recently dove head first into automation, got a mx-330 pc10 and mam72-52v. I've been running the MX for a few weeks now lights out and I have to say it's been a breeze. Only on the second job on the machine but it's been smooth sailing. I can't compare to a hermle or DMG though; I came from a Haas UMC so this is quite the step up lol

Very soon I'll be starting on the first job for the 52v and I'm quite nervous/excited. Still waiting on fixturing but I was doing some tests inside mastercam/CAMplete for clearance with these schunk WDM 5x modules, it's surprising how little you have to raise your workpiece off of the table for access.

I actually wanted to get 100mm tall modules but sadly they only had 125mm in stock.

(dummy reference part I extruded but general shape is there)

 

[jas6142]

The matsuura dealer will be in here Monday .   I see they now offer the mam in a 45v which is about the ideal size, last i knew they only offered the 35v.  ive always been partial to the mam's for the automation.

[cncappsjames]

8 hours ago, Kyle F said:

At my shop we recently dove head first into automation, got a mx-330 pc10 and mam72-52v. I've been running the MX for a few weeks now lights out and I have to say it's been a breeze.

.....

it's surprising how little you have to raise your workpiece off of the table for access.

...

This is one of the many areas I believe Matsuura is FAR superior to the toilet bowl lovers in machine design.

Matsuura can get closer to the pallet center with the head/spindle. Doing this allows you to run shorter tool assemblies and it requires shorter work holding to get ot he part. All that to say a more rigid machining setup = the best metal removal scenario possible.

8 hours ago, jas6142 said:

The matsuura dealer will be in here Monday .   I see they now offer the mam in a 45v which is about the ideal size, last i knew they only offered the 35v.  ive always been partial to the mam's for the automation.

In the MAM series they offer the MAM72-35V, MAM72-42V, MAM72-52V, MAM72-70V, and MAM72-100H. Then in the CUBLEX series there is a CUBLEX-35 and a CUBLEX-63. There was a CUBLEX-42 but I believe they discontinued it.

350mm, 420mm, 520mm, 700mm, and 1000mm respectively.

The number after the dash is the CM value of MAX pallet Changing swing diameter essentially.

[Newbeeee™]

Component size....number of different part numbers to make....required geometric tolerances....tool matrix size....level of required automation....control compatibility with rest of shop....programming SW.....verification SW....etc etc....

As THEE cncAppsGuy has said, TOTAL support is #1 as you're jumping into new water with the 1st machine. Of which, successfully implemented, should lead to your 2nd machine.

But it's a BIG jump from a Vert or Hori....daunting if on your own with the hot job sat waiting for you! Knowing who you can then reliably phone, will make your decision far easier IMHO.