What you think about it?

[mig]

What you guys thinking about this news.

Biggest North American car producers opening manufactories in China.

Excuse: To produce cars for the local market.

But now they planning shut down most of car manufactories here and bring

product from over sea.

Good news, isn’t it?

Personally I would never buy car made in China. I don’t even care what

brand it is.

How about you guys?

Regards

[jbel]

Twenty years ago many people said they would never buy a car made in Japan. Now the Japanese are positioned to kick the big 3's collective butts. Granted many of those 'imports' are made here in the USA, but never say never.

 

If the quality, reliability and styling are there, it's only a matter of time.

[Trapper Paul]

Here's what I think about that.

 

This is a quote from house armed services committee chairman. Duncan Hunter.

Its in the manufacting & technology news.

 

"Today, because of the massive surplus over the U.S., China has dollars and they are paying for things like the sovremenny class missile cruiser, which is a carrier-killing machine designed by the Soviet Union to destroy American aircraft carriers. They are purchasing submarine cababilities from the Soviat Union. They are purchasing weponds technology from around the world and they are doing it with american dollars that are accumulting as a result of this massive trade deficit, which to a very large degree is a function of this new species of illegal subsidy that is being given to exporters by China's government--this currency manipulation."

[gcode]

The auto unions have pretty much killed their own jobs. Union plants will continue to close till there are none left

 

GM reports 1 billion in quarterly losses

 

quote:

---

Over the last four months, GM has said it will close a van plant in Baltimore, and cease production at a truck plant in New Jersey and a car assembly plant in Michigan. It has also said it would cut production of new cars and trucks in North American by more than 300,000 vehicles through the first six months of this year.

 

"We have to do even more on the cost side," GM Chief Financial Officer John Devine said on the conference call, citing rising health-care costs in particular.

 

GM, the largest private provider of health care in the United States, expects its U.S. health care costs for more than 1 million workers, retirees and their families to rise to $5.6 billion this year, up from $5.2 billion last year.

 

---

[Rekd™]

Yet another reason I feel no sympathy for union workers.

 

IMNSHO, Unions are less than useless. (Less because they're forcing companies out of business.)

[mayday]

ohh the agony

what ever will happen to those LONG time employee's. why after spending 25 to 30 yrs sweating over card games, having to nap in crampt spaces, getting the month of July off paid during changeover. my my my how will they survive. most are so close to that early buyout. there just arnt enough gas stations around any more to pick up the strays. I feel bad, really bad

 

BTW, I'll find a car to buy dont worry bout that

[Nathan G. Baldwin]

As in any market dominated by concern not for it's own national prosperity but rather economic (which loosely translated into our new modern english means : monetary)growth, the current position of manufacturers and stockholders alike remains the same as it always has: Build it cheaper and you can sell it cheaper.

 

Whether you are a fan of unions or not, the simple truth is that unionised labor makes way for simple human rights that keep stockholders and management from "killing off" the jobs of any number of happy, hard working lads and lasses to make a quick buck in the marketshare. There are downsides, of course, but if it is such an arbitrary and unpopular thing, why are so many third world countries finding their people uprising and asking for union style benefits in factories our country has moved overseas?

 

Not to make a point about unions... as I have never worked for a union shop..

 

The real point of the topic appears to be what is the subject of american manufacturers moving more and more business overseas.

 

For decades now, Ford and Chevrolet alike have been manufacturing cars in england, france, and Australia without a word of opposition. The claim has always been that it's a good thing for all involved. The overseas employees bring skills and design and a new market to be dabbled in, while the bulk of the profit comes right back here to the states into our american market.

 

I personally am very frightened of the American marketplace, these days. The common man has painted himself into a corner by demanding higher paying jobs and a lower cost of living. We all want the best of both worlds. We want more time with the kids, while making more money so that we can pay for soccer and little league and get little johnny that new play station so that he won't feel left out at school. Meanwhile, we go to the same place every time to buy these things. Wal Mart, Sam's club, Meijer, big lots, home depot, lowes... All massive traders in the overseas market just dying to sell lots of asian made products to the american do it yourselfer at as little cost to him as possible.

 

That same low price will come back to bite us when there are no american companies left to hire us, and no american farmers left to grow our own food and no american tradesmen left to keep working on the arms that keep America from being invaded by the very people who sold us those so-called low cost deals of the week.

 

In closing, we had all better start paying attention. Responses are highly appreciated. I am not going to say that I'm right about everything, I'm not even going to say that I should be talking about this on the Mcam users forum, as it's not the right place for it. My personal e-mail for anyone who cares or would like to dicuss all of this at a different place is [email protected].

I would also like to appologise if anyone is offended by the afforementioned text, but seriously folks, this is our own backyard we're talking about

[gavetta]

Amen Brother!! I agree with all that was said. I'm pretty sure this isn't the right place oi this forum (should probably be in the O/T section, but I just had to say I agree. This is OUR back yard and we should be paying attention.

Al

[Rekd™]

Nathan,

 

Unions USED to have a place in America. They don't any more.

 

Unions force companies to pay exuberant amounts of money for jobs that require almost ZERO skill. For example, my wife is a phone jockey for SBC. A job that anyone could get with little to no training. Yet the unions have forced SBC to pay her well over $25.00/hr, PLUS bennies. Not only that, SBC can't fire people that can't/won't do their job. So they carry dead weight as well as pay 3 to 5 times MORE than they should for the same work.

 

Not only that, but union shops are a joke. Paying guys $30.00/hr to run a drill press. Give me a break! That's an ef'n $8.00/hr job!

 

Do you honestly think that these companies can survive? How about the employees; when they get laid off because the business closes, they won't have squat for skills, and will be accustomed to getting paid premium dollars for doing jack ****, so they won't be able to survive on what they'll get in the real world.

 

Lastly, Unions aren't in it for the employees any mroe, they're in it for the money. Period.

[Rekd™]

I can't count the number of people I've interviewd from places like General Dynamics, Boeing, NASSCO, and many many other union shops. They put down their 20 years experience as a MACHINIST on the application, wanting and expecting to get upwards of $30.00/hour.

 

So I ask them,

 

"Can you run a mill?"

 

"Of course, I've been doing it for 20 years!"

 

"Ok, then.. how do you square a block of material?"

 

"I dunno, never had to do that".

 

"Ok, how do you know if an end mill is getting dull?"

 

"I dunno, never had to do that"

 

"Do you know how to adjust a tool or work offset?"

 

"What's an offset?"

 

 

"Do you know how to measure from an edge to the center of a hole?"

 

"What do you mean?"

 

"Never mind. So you want $30.00/hour?"

 

"That's right."

 

"To do what?"

 

"Be a machinist."

 

"But you're NOT a machinist. I can pay you $7.00 hr as an operator."

 

"$7.00/hr???!!! Um, I can't afford to live off that!"

 

"Ok, then go down the street to Burger King, they're hiring people with no skills. Next?"

[Storkman]

I was always informed that unions spend their time and money protecting the guy who doesn't want to do his job. The average Joe who goes to work everyday, does what he is supposed to, and keeps his mouth shut, never has a use for his union. But he sure pays for those benefits.

[betts]

I think if you take Eastech-1's comments and temper them with rekd's union comments, you really have something there. I know exactly what its like to try "avoiding" the big box and big chain stores to buy things. It is very difficult.

 

Without the internet, it would be almost impossible! I was sick and tired of foriegn made clothing and I searched for US made clothing, that also wasn't made by a company I had political problems with (like Levi Strauss supporting gun control), and it has been downright difficult!

 

I still don't have a shirt manufacturer that I'm real happy with, but for pants I buy "Diamond Gussett" jeans. US made and great quality, and the crotch gussett is great for us chubby guys too, and they look very nice. For shirts i used to be able to count on Carhartt, but now they have much of it to Mexico. When I complained to them, I got a very nice letter saying their Mexico plants were unionized and workers paid well. WTF? I wasn't complaining about non-union made clothes, I was complaining because they moved the jobs and mfg to Mexico!!!!!!!

 

This is just one area of purchase, I could go on with things like electric razors, cookware and utensils, lamps, bed linens, calculators....... on and on goes the list of things that are a struggle to buy US made product. ANd I'm REALLY trying!!!!!

 

The truck/car market is a big ticket thing so it draws more attention, and the union crap has really screwed them, but the problem is everywhere.

 

My wife was so pi$$ed at me for saying "where was that made" every time she picked something up at the store or bought something, that she finally gave in to my way with the exceptions of women's clothes, shoes, and pantyhose, as they were just to difficult to find US made product. But she has snuck in some toys for the grandson lately!

 

There are a couple more biggies, shoes and toys!

 

I'm rambling now, someone else's turn.

[Matt Berube at Ferron Mold]

I never felt bad about paying my United Steelworkers of America dues. Not too expensive really... However, previous posters have accurately stated that they protect the lazy and I never felt that they did anything for me and that company will not survive. I avoid buying ANYTHING that comes from China but until the BIG 3 make a quality product for a reasonable value, all my automotive dollars will go to Toyota.

[betts]

And the thing of that is Matt, Toyota is building MORE plants and a brand new $500 million engineering center HERE in US. Granted we may not be the average Michigan shop, but we have done as much work for Nissan, Honda and Subaru as we have for GM and Chrysler, and we do very little Ford work.

 

Currently, in the 3/4 to 1 ton range, we pretty much have to stick with the big three for trucks and vans. But if I was buying a passenger vehicle, I would look at Toyota, Honda, Subaru, and Nissan, and for a model made as much as possible in the US.

[Nathan G. Baldwin]

People always say that unions are so bad. Yet no one complains about the concepts that we can thank unions for... Like the 40 hr. work week.

 

Like affirmative action and welfare, unions are lately being seen as an archaic practice that are no longer necessary to afford the good people of this nation the rights and and pay they deserve.

 

In reality, we can moan all we want to about how unions protect lazy people and put unreasonable regulations on employers (trust me, I've certainly got some examples of both cases myself). But as I said before, were it not for unions, the american laborer would have nothing but his or her own word

and choices to protect them. What any complaintant about welfare, union or affirmative action truly needs is to focus on fixing the problems.

 

It's an all too popular scenario we find ourselves in where a good Idea is seen to be falling into a position wherein people, those at least who do not appreciate the privileges they are granted, can take advantage of and lean on a concept which was put into place for their protection, thus fueling laziness and further loading those who work hard and appreciate their positions.

 

It becomes an enless cycle of critical debate and an answer never gets found.

 

The job of a union is to act as a mediator between employer and employee. Thus continually exerting effort endlessly to work for both the good of the company and the good of the common employee. when a union fails in this, by way of either playing favorites with it's governing employer or protecting workers who deserve to lose their job to a more worthy applicant, the union becomes a corrupt entity. This entity, like government, or law, or health care benifits, is not in need of abolishment, but rather, reform.

You never get anwhere with and infected ear by cutting it off. We instead must view these situations as an opportunity to place focus on the problems and fix them.

 

In other words, I see the plight of the american worker today and view a large portion of this position to be caused by laziness, same as any of the replies I've read on this. But the position taken by some to simply give up on the whole concept is not a valid option, and will never happen. As long as there are money driven people in this world, there will be people who need protection from them. People who have invested a large part of their lives working the crap jobs sweeping the factory floor only to get fired because a younger, stronger person will do the same job for two dollars an hour less.

 

While I myself have never felt the benifits or costs of a union employment, I can testify on behalf of those I have known who needed a unions protection and didn't have it.

 

I respect the outlook of gentlemen (or ladies) who bear similiar opinions to Rekd, but at the same time cannot justify or allow the process to be badmouthed because of some who give the whole concept a bad name. you simply cannot judge a practice on a few bad examples.

 

It is of course the opinion of an already just and

actively improving employer that employees do not need to unionize and that their trust and relationship with their own employees might deteriorate given unionization. In these cases unions don't have the necessity to be there.

 

However, work for a company like wal mart who employs many many thousands of people and still offers benefits to less than a quarter of them

 

Wal Mart's shady moves

 

the concept of unionization is arguably necessary.

We who work hard and have employers who treat us with respect and fan our flames to produce and to be efficient cannot see where a union could do any good. But we are not being taken for granted, as so many are.

 

Once again, I am not a genius on the subject and will freely admit that any of this is purely subjective, so feel free to e-mail a reply. I would enjoy talking about it further after hours via home e-mail.

 

[email protected]

 

Thanks so much for the feedback.

[mcpgmr]

Where's Mary Beth when you need her ?

[Nathan G. Baldwin]

In regards to the other posts, here are some things that my family and I have put into place that help a great deal. You spend a few more bucks and sometimes a few more hours, but in the end those bucks and time spent become investments in your community.

 

1. Visit your farmer's markets. They need all the help they can get. Most times it's actually cheaper and the food is much better.

 

2. Go to a local butcher shop for meat. they cannot buy from overseas producers and have no cause to. an investment of a few cents per pound will go a long way toward fresh, clean livestock and healthy family members.

 

3. Bear in mind that even if you are buying a car made in america, the money may still be going overseas, even if it's built by american hands.

 

4. Local hardware stores carry an enormous amount of experienced men and women who have spent their lives working on problems people just like you are having around the house. Use this as an excuse to spend the extra bucks and go there instead of the depots. They can also tell you more about the area specific codes, regulations, and how to use their specific merchandise than the minimum wage sixteen year old kid trained to operate a cash register can.

 

5. for hand tools, buy Allen, USA. It's the only 100 % made in the usa tool there is. period. even their packaging comes from here in the US, and they're reasonably inexpensive; especially when compared to crapsman, snap-in-two, and matbroke tools.

 

6. tell your kids to read a book instead of playing that video game. They'll thank you when they are in the workplace and can focus instead of typing away at a computer game and not doing their job.

 

7. Place a higher importance on quality instead of quantity, maybe you get a jar with 75 pickle slices instead of twelve pounds, but I bet they taste better two years from now when you buy a new jar than the ones in the giant industrial tub hiding in the back of the fridge.

 

these are just a couple of eye openers I like to think of whenever I'm tempted to go to wal-mart to save a few bucks.

[Rekd™]

quote:

---

People always say that unions are so bad. Yet no one complains about the concepts that we can thank unions for... Like the 40 hr. work week.

---

"Complain" about the good things?

 

Anyway, I DID acknowledge that fact, though it is past tense.

 

quote:

---

Unions USED to have a place in America. They don't any more.

---

[gcode]

This is really an "offshore" company

3 1/2 miles offshore.

 

These guys are going to house 600 computer programmers is a luxury cruise ship just off the coast to avoid US immigration and employement

laws.

Sea Code

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

---

...but until the BIG 3 make a quality product for a reasonable value, all my automotive dollars will go to ...

---

That is a great statement!

[rant]

My take on unions is based on my personal experience as a former union worker for 3 years. IT SUCKED!!!!! My job was great, my Supervisor was great, management was great, but the union leadership was a bunch of B@$+@RD$. I could not get merit raises because of them, I was restriced as to what tasks I could perform, what jobs I could apply for etc... They are about as useful as xxxx on a bull! I have started to wean myself and my family off Wal-Mart and those types of establishments. Though it's getting increasingly difficult as the smaller shops are having trouble competing with Big Box pricing. I personally blame unions for the demise of US manufacturing. Their refusal to embrace new technology, new methods, "best person for the job" etc... has FORCED companies to go elsewhere, even overseas. Granted Wal-Mart's hammering Rubbermaid's material costs was an egregious and disgusting situation and that right there made me not want to ever step foot in another Wal-Mart again. They don't have much by way of selection either.

[/rant]

 

The "Big 3" will soon be irrelevant. I plan on not purchasing another automobile from them until they get their quality where it needs to be.

 

James teh disgusted General Motors Customer... (I own a Saturn (which is not bad but not as good as my Hondas were) and a Chevy Astro Van that I would gladly fill full of concrete and push off a cliff if it were not for the fact that I owe more on the piece of $#!+ that it's worth! Drive an American car off the new car lot and you're upside down. After three years the thing's worthless!

[mig]

Yessss! Unions is no goooooood boys, but this only smaaaaall part of problem, i think.

Companies moving over sea job because chip labor. Chinese worker cost 100 bucks a month.

[Bruce Caulley]

quote:

---

They are about as useful as xxxx on a bull!

---

Hey everybody!! I taught James something!!

 

Bruce

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

[thoskins]

When and how does it stop. What do we as americans do to stop the eventual implosion of our economy.

Don't shop at Wal-mart or places like it. Ha!!!. Try not shopping at places like it and you'll watch your paycheck dwindle very quickly. All we really get to do is b*&!#$ about it. Oh you can fool yourself by thinking you can go vote for the lesser of two evils , and sadly watch as politicians sell off our country every year bit by bit. All we get to do is b*&!#$. Yea I know at least we get to gripe, right......

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

All we can really hope for is the demise of China. Our Politicians refuse to make China pay for the manipulation of their currency. Sad, just sad.