Looking for higher end cam package

[Roger Peterson]

Murlin, I was referring to what is being discussed in this thread, higher end machines with HPCC or equivelant. They do not like arcs. But I agree for many machine tools the toolpath filter is "da bomb". As far as geometry, Prosin is working off of clean Pro-E files (I think that is what I read anyway) and that was all that I was really addressing. But once again I agree, garbage in garbage out, facets in, facets out. It all starts with the geometry you have to work with, and the toolpath filter can help.

 

 

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...higher end machines with HPCC or equivelant...

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I did some testing and believe it or not, the finishes actually looked better on the point to point stuff using the same tolerances as the arc filtered stuff. On a Robodrill with better than 2x the code, cycle time was the same filtered vs. unfiltered. So depending on what I'm doing, I may or may not use filter. 2D Prismatic stuff... yes definitely. 3D Sculpted surfaces... probably just on roughing.

 

JM2C

[Watcher]

For those ones that wants to know more about HSM works and also to contribute to this important thread:

 

This weekend I was introduced officialy to HSM works, in the HSM works headquarters. HSMworks ApS has been developing it in the past 4 years, and honestly, is a very good product. The integration with Solidworks interface is impressively well tailored. No cumbersome screens or fields, a lot of help for filling out the value fields, a plenty of graphical images/details just to help the programmers to use the software. In brief, a seamless transition for Solidworks users. They will feel at home. Solidworks IMHO has one of the best CAD interfaces in the market, and HSMWorks it is in the same road.

The toolpath calculation is impressive. (They show it for me in a dual processor machine - it does support and enjoys the potential of HT architeture, Dual-Core, etc...)

HSMWorks supports 64 bit systems and is able to perform the calculations in background, in the meantime, you can continue you work, creating or modifying toolpaths, models, assemblies, geometry, drafting, detailing, etc. No delays or hangs while a calculation is being accomplished in the background. You can simulate all your NC environment, with machine components, vises, fixtures, etc. You can machine parts and assemblies. HSMWorks ApS is working hard to deliver new toolpaths, they have good mathematicians working in the development of these algoritms, and I saw more than 10 new strategies just for 2D/3D stuff, but they already offer a lot of toolpaths in the current version. All them, truly high-speed. BTW, that is a good new in HSMworks, it is being born truly HSM since the begining.

The post language it is based in Java Script, pretty fast processing time, with a lot of special instructions/routines created by them just for post processing tweaking. I dare to say that is so flexible as MP, or at least, they are in the right way to be so good as MP. Unfortunately HSMWorks does not support yet simultaneous 5X, but they offer full support for 3+2 machining.

There are some new "top secret" toolpaths exclusively for HSM, great for mold machining.

Definetly is not so powerful as Mastercam or other settled CAM solutions in the market, but it has a huge potential, because as I said, is being born right since the beginning to use the modern computer architeture of these days plus innovative toolpaths. The HSMworks management is really looking for a differential in their toolpaths, and for this reason, they are not buying source codes, but in fact developing or improving new/old techniques.

IMHO, they are in the right way, and I think that will not take so long to the day that they will compete with the big guys.

 

JM2C

[Need]

Daniel,

 

I would like to know the difference between Cimco HSM strategies and HSMwork toolpaths. I think they are same just used in different softwares. Cimco - Mastercam, HSMWorks - Solidworks.

The kernel seems to be same, one that was bought from a third party vendor. So is Cimco / HSMworks just packaging for same product.

[gcode]

Mastercam and Cimco Highspeed both buy rights to the basic kernal from a third party and then

develop thier own proprietary toolpaths using

the kernal to drive them. Its much the same

as different Cad/Cam compainies using the

Parasolids kernal to run solid modeling.

They toolpaths are similar, but there are differences.

One thing I would really like to see is the highspeed retract strategies applied to Mastercam

2D toolpaths.

I have always felt that a good CAM package

running inside SolidWorks would be an ideal

software. I have tried CamWorks and

SolidCam and am looking forward to trying

HSMWorks.

Thanks for the update Daniel.

Are you going to try HSMWorks on some of your work??

If so let us know how it goes.

[Keith @ Solid Code Solutions]

quote:

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I have tried CamWorks and

SolidCam and am looking forward to trying

HSMWorks.

Thanks for the update Daniel.

Are you going to try HSMWorks on some of your work??

If so let us know how it goes.

---

Dido!

[Watcher]

quote:

---

I would like to know the difference between Cimco HSM strategies and HSMwork toolpaths. I think they are same just used in different softwares. Cimco - Mastercam, HSMWorks - Solidworks.

The kernel seems to be same, one that was bought from a third party vendor. So is Cimco / HSMworks just packaging for same product.

---

Hi Need!

 

Honestly, I'm not a CIMCO/HSMWorks resseler, so I'm just telling you what I saw there. I don't know CIMCO HSM either, so I cannot say if what I saw in HSM works in totally new.

About the third part kernel algorithm, AFAIK, only the adaptive clearing strategy comes from a company in UK - Freesteel - owned by two mathematicians, Julian Todd and Martin Dunschen, who developed it some years ago. But as Gcode said, even if the kernel is driving them, even so, they can offer endless variations and exclusive toolpaths being guided by it. When I said new toolpaths, I meant that more than ten 2 1/2 & 3 axis toolpaths are under development, about to be released in the next months. I saw some HSM moves in the backplot that were very new for me, specially concerning transitions moves.

Furthermore, I think that HSMWorks is very interested in the creation of some differentials, because even with the CIMCO staff behind it, the company name is different, the product is different, their homepage is different, so I think that HMSWorks do not intend to offer Mastercam HSM with a new cover.

 

JM2C

[Redfire427]

Well, after nearly two months of testing different cam systems, I have finally come up with a final tally of my results. I compared 6 cam packages and as stated earlier, most of them had there good and bad points. I will rate them all on a 1 to 10 score with 10 being the best.

 

Powermill 10

Cam-Tool 9.5

Hypermill 8.0

Work NC 7.5

Mastercam 7.0

ProManufacturing 5.0

 

Powermill was easily the best system of all. It's toolpath generation time was incredible, which is my number one beef with Mastercam. File conversion was seamless, user interface was reasonable to comprehend, no special computer or hardware required, price is reasonable, training close by. Powermill has so many useful features, it really makes Mastercam look like a joke. This is a real dissapointment for myself as I had hoped that Mastercam would finally release a version that works properly. Mastercam shows potential for the future but are clearly way behind in development.

 

In conclusion, I will be recommending Powermill to be purchased by our company and slowly make the transition over. Thank-you Mastercam for 15 good years.

[gcode]

Thanks for the update.

I've never used Powermill but have been told its great for 3D work and very poor for 2D work.

I hope you'll check in with regular progress

reports. This is an interesting subject.

[FLIPPER™]

Wow! Prosin. I don't hear that too often in this forum. A friend of mine had to switch to Hypermill and says he likes it. He was a die hard MC user in 9 and was moving to X. Switching jobs can do that. But how integrated with Cad packages like SW is Powermill? A few places I know of also want to switch to that software or are looking into it. Must be something to say about that. I would love to get a demo of it to see what all the buzz is about.

I'll look into it.

Thanks for the info.

[kunfuzed]

It's great to see an honost user comparison. I'd be interested to see a side by side comparison of your tests and points given between MC and Powermill.

[Guest]

I am glad to see someone stepped up and did their home work on the product that they decided to purchase.

 

I too would like to see how the scoring system was done.

 

While I agree that tool path generation is slow in MC, I'd like to know what else this "score" was based on.

[Redfire427]

For those of you who are wondering what kind of scoring system I used to evaluate the different packages, here are a few of the most significant. First let me remind all that each vender was given time to present all of their features to me and then we programmed my sample part, so I am clearly comparing apples to apples.

 

 

Processing time on 3D high speed toolpaths

File conversion from ProE

Ability to process in the background

Ease of use ( learning curve )

Basic Cad features

Training

Cost

Computer requirements

2D capability

 

The largest weight was given to processing time and this is where Powermill was unbelievable. All of the other Cam packages took anywhere from 30 to 50 minutes in total to calculate all the roughing and finishing toolpaths based on strict parameters that I used on the actual mold. Powermill, however took only 12 minutes. Although Powermill does not have the ability to process in the background ( same as Mastercam ) it becomes a non-issue because it processes so quickly.

 

Cam-tool was easily the most costly system tested and would most likely require a bad-xxxx computer to get the most out of it. The learning curve was also fairly steep.

 

In the end, it was very close between Powermill and Cam-tool, but based on overall speed and " overall cost between the two systems, Powermill came out on top.

[Grievous]

OK. I'll buy'it. It's the best. That's your point isn't it? Something else?

[Cuda84]

OK I'll give it the translator, and the processing time. But it dose not even come close to MCX in 2D work.

 

We have 4 seats here. They can read almost any IGS file.

 

Surfaces made in PowerShape are usually crap in MCX, at least the ones I get.

 

Never used the software though so can't coment on ease of use.

 

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Cam Tool... good luck getting support for it.

 

I am also hearing rumblings about people moving to Powermill...

 

Prosin, was each aspect rated on a scale of 1 to 10 then the sum total averaged together and that was your rating or was say Toolpath Processing time given a max of 5 points and each other "feature" given a rating of a max of 1.1? I'm not dogging you I just want to know what the numbers mean so I can evaluate what your evaluation means.

 

I'd like to see what each aspect of each package scored. For example was Pro/E's Training a 10 but it's ease of use a 0 or 1, or Mastercam's 2D capability a 7 but it's CAD was a 2?? You get what I'm aiming at? Again, I'm not dogging your evaluation I just want to get a sense of what went into the final number.

 

Thanks for your time and effort.

[mold100]

I was not impressed with Camtool myself and I sat next to there tech guy for a week, after a week we decided there was no benefit to throwing that kind of cash out there for the few things it may have done better. Dont take this wrong but many people know how to use mastercam in a specific way and really do not know use it to its ability. Manipulating a model, boundries, check surfs, simply hiding what you dont want to cut, patching and toolpath options they dont use. Those of us who had time in before solids know a few more tricks I beleive than others and have had to find improvemnbt methods long ago. However I am not an MC user at the moment and have used virually everything out there at one time or another and pound for pound it is the best, it lacks in processing but makes up for it everywhere else. If you must look for something else my personal other fav would be cimatron. Very powerful, but not super user friendly. I currently use surfcam and it its okay but limited boundries and toolpathing control options.

[Redfire427]

CNC APPS GUY:

To explain my scoring system and my particular requirements in great detail would bore most of you to death and go on forever.

 

Let me sum it all up in a few short sentences. We all are paid to get a particular job completed in a reasonable ( or in most cases, unreasonable ) amount of time to satisfy the boss and the job schedule. When you are using a cam system that is preventing you from accomplishing this simple task, it is time to look elsewhere. No system is perfect or will satisfy everyone as everyone's requirements or opinions are different. Look at it this way, our shop rate is almost $100 an hour. We have determined that Mastercam is "costing" us more in lost manufacturing time than it would cost to replace it with a faster system over the long run. Mastercam would literally have to triple or quadruple its processing speed to be back in contention. I would love to continue to use Mastercam as we have a considerable amount invested in it.

Sorry to be so vague on my scoring system, but understand that processing power is my number one requirement and the evaluation reflects that.

[Kannon]

good luck on your new venture...

[Bruce Caulley]

Powermill is pretty good at what you describe. This won't be the last time MC loses a customer due to processing speed.

 

Bruce

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...understand that processing power is my number one requirement and the evaluation reflects that...

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Ok, so you took the most important aspect to you and gave it the most weight. I understand.

 

Thanks.

[Jeff Kemper]

Carmen

 

Do you have a spreedsheet with the numbers?

 

Thanks

[steve f]

I just started running an HSMWorks evaluation and so far impressive results. Anyone familiar with Mastercam and Solidworks will find it a shoe in and HSM strategies are incorporated into every toolpath (with the exception of drilling of course). It's new and likely needs some more time in development to work out bugs but this software is definitely going to start taking a chunk out of market share for the other CAM guys. I can only expect that 5ax simultaneous and machine simulation are around the corner.

[Need]

Watcher,

 

Please see following link

 

http://www.solidworks.com/pages/partners/P...&productid=1055

 

solidworks partners:

CIMCO Integration I/S (See HSMWorks ApS):

Maglebjergvej 6

Lyngby DK 2800

Denmark

Phone: +45 4585 6050

Fax: +45 4585 6053

 

Web: http://www.hsmworks.com Product: HSM Performance Pack

Category: Manufacturing/CAM Software

 

 

I am not sure what is difference between cimco hsm toolpaths and HSMworks toolpaths.

 

Steve might be able to throw some light as he is using evaluation copy of HSMWorks.

[Guest SAIPEM]

Keepin mind that ANY system that integrates into SolidWorks will further tax that system.

 

SolidWorks alone is a huge resource hog.

 

You'll need twice the machine that runs Mastercam well to run integrated CAM with SolidWorks.

 

I've been using SolidCAM a lot lately and it is growing on me.

Mastercam still has it beat by a long way when it comes to Lathe.