Probing questions for a Horizontal

[Thee Dragracer1951]

I'm convincing myself I need to buy a Horizontal machine

My questions are about Probing...

Will Mastercam support Tool probing (and do you probe a tool at every toolchange??) And what about part probing to generate an inspection / SPC report? Is this easily done or am I looking at an aftermarket (read In House, cause they're the best...) post?

What about tool management? How do you deal with alternative tools?

I'm gonna have a bunch more questions....

 

Now...My next question is more machine specific.

most machines are stock as 1 deg on the fourth and .001 degree is an option. Is there a reliability or fragileness associated with full fourth and is it worth the whole lot of money as an option?

What about spindle speed? Buy all I can get? Or is there a point of diminishing returns here. I'm thinking 12k to 15k

What about pallet pools? Or can I add them later?

I'm looking at a Daewoo a Mori Okuma and a Kitamura.

What sorts of things do I want to make sure I get in the control?

Did I mention I'm gonna have more questions?

[Chris Rizzo]

We are in EXACTLY the same boat Jim, and slowly learning the answer to some of these questions. We should compare notes soon.

 

CNC apps guy will be your answer man here.

 

what about Toyoda or Matsura.?

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Matsuura, Makino and Toyoda are all sold by Selway. I've had a somewhat less than stellar experience with them as my Haas support.

I understand that the service is much better when you get into upper end machines. I would really like to consider a Matsuura, Toyoda or a Makino. They are great machines. Ive talked with Scott at Methods Machine in Boston, perhaps I need to talk to Bill at Selway instead of Vince. I understand the service is better in Southern California.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...service is much better when you get into upper end machines...

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That's probably pretty accurate. Myself I ONLY deal with the High End Machines, at least that's all I've dealt with in the year I've been here.

 

My opinions are as follows;

 

Tool Breakage check - After every tool. It only costs a few seconds. With some minor post modifications Mastercam supports it well.

 

Part Probing. Mastercam DOES suport this through some fairly involved Post Processor work. There's a wealth of info on the forum about this. YOu can look at it and decide if it's for you. The other option is to create the cycles manually in a text file. Save each cycle individually as a seperate text file, then do a Manual Entry Toolpath, select the text file and you're done. But, if you want it in your operations manager and want to be able to change variables and such, creating custom drill cycles and having those be your probing cycles woudl be best. Depends on what you want to do.

 

Tool Management. I routinely tell customers to use Tool Life management, even if they do not choose to set up redundant tools. If used properly it's a great tool to help you figure out your REAL tooling costs and what kind of life you get out of your tools.

 

Rotary Axes... this is FULLY an application driven question but if you do not want it to be a limitation on current or future work, I'd suggest a full 4th. As far as fragility... if you hit and it's clamped, pretty much the same damage, unclamped, yeah it'll be more costly but DO NOT let that influence your decision in any way. If you need it, you need it.

 

Spindle speed. IMHO 12k is the BARE MINIMUM I WOULD EVER EVEN CONSIDER if I did any sort of aluminum cutting.

 

If you buy a Toyoda, it is EASY to add the machine into a Pallet Pool. Mori Seiki... you're pretty much screwed if you decide in a few years to add another machine. In the past they had SERIOUS integration issues with older machines and newer machines in cells. I know because I worked for Mori Seiki, NOT Yamazen, NOT Ellison, NOT Maruka, MORI SEIKI. I know those machines inside and out. Matsuura, if you want to add say an 11 Pallet Pallet pool to your machine, you can do it. It is a field installable option. If you want to add the machine into a cell system, I'm not absolutely sure about that.

 

Options, BARE MINIMUM you want AI-NANO STANDARD! NOT LOOK AHEAD, AI-NANO. You want Custom MACRO B STANDARD with 999 Variables. You want a BARE MINIMUM of 120 Tools. You want that to be EXPANDABLE too for when you grow. You want Extended Offsets (48 extra BARE MINIMUM). You want 2MB (probably not going to be standard). Tool Offset C STANDARD (Tool Geo. Geo Wear, Dia. and Dia. Wear). You'll want High Pressure Coolant, you NEED a Chip Conveyor.

 

I'd never even consider Mazak or Okuma. They are NOT standard controls. Kitamura makes a nice machine. Anymore I would not consider Mori Seiki. Their control Interface SUCKS IMHO.

 

If it were my checkbook, machines I'd consider (not in any particular order), Kitamura, Makino, Yasda, Toyoda, Matsuura and.... shoot... I'm forgetting one or two I know it.

 

JM2C

 

That's all I can think of at the moment.

[tryon]

James is right on. Except i like mazak also. Personally i would never buy just an indexer on a horizontal, We have 6 horizontals total, 3 with 24 pallet cell and 3 standalones and only 1 of them has a full forth axis. Guess which one is the busiest and which is the one everyone wants to put there job on? The full 4th. It is a severe pain in the Arse to indicate and line up your pallet on its base when you cant just workoffset it out if you have to. Indicate 0, indicate 180, hammer, indicate 0, tighten base a little, reindicate, tap, index reindicate,now check 90 and 270..repeat.etc.

 

 

sucks but you gotta do it.

[Lars Christensen]

tryon,

 

you take your tombstones off the pallets?

 

We have 2 Horizontals, Kiwa 2 Pallet and a Matsuura 11 Pallet. In regards to the indexer it really depends on what type of jobs you do, our 1st. was a full 4th, but when it came to the Matsuura I told management that I rather spend the money somewhere else, it really depends on the type of work you do.

Now one thing that really hit us hard on the 1st machine was chip evacuation, had never run production, I never realized how big a problem chips could be. Bottom line get augers in that thing and anything equal or better than one of these. Microfine 2

 

Now in regards to probing.

Table probe is a must, go of a "actual" touch probe where the tool physical touch the probe, on our Matsuura we spend the money on a Renishaw "laser" probe (I love the company, great support) not worth the hassle, though it looks cool to costumers.

We bought a VF2 that came with a Renishaw spindle probe, I used Mastercams costum drill cycles, and the Renishaw macros, and I am using it as "in progress inspection" I have not gotten it to print out inspection reports yet, but there will be a day. I tell you in my opinion a spindle probe on a Horizontal is like cruise control in a car "you can get by without one, but on those road trips, man ."

 

I offcourse agree with everything James sayes going from 120 to 240 tools on the Matsuura is easy and cheap, and trust me you will get up there. 1000psi through coolant is a must on every machine these days.

 

Just my opinion

 

Lars

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Interesting thoughts on the Mori and the Okuma

I owned a Okuma horizontal in the mid 80's. Big strong machine. But they certainly haden't even dreamed of cells then.

I was looking at Toyoda's site and Kitamuras last night.

I had heard, I don't even remember where about full fourths being somewhat more fragile. Hence my question.

I've never been one to not get something I need because of cost. It generally costs more in the long run.

My thoughts are 170 tools, 14k spindle, TSC, Pallet pool. But most of my questions revolve around the control...

Memory, look ahead, AI NANO, Macro B, offsets, all that stuff that if I spec it and forget something I'm REALLY screwed.

I think the transition to lights out is about a year. I'm thinkin $600k will get this done nicely

[MIL-TFP-41]

We are looking seriously at horizontals also....Mori & Matsuura are at the top of the list.

 

Full 4th is something that we need...plus I would rather have it & not use it much than not have it & need it in the future.

 

Tool Probing..Right now on our MAM72/63V cell we have a renishaw laser & I am not too fond of it. Even with Renishaw's drip rejection macro's the coolant drips get you every now & then...but on a horizontal this might not be as much of an issue. If I had my choice I would trade the laser in for a touch probe. All I do for running a breakage check is call up a sub that has the macro call in it...but then I use macro variables for my tool number & heigth offsets, so one marco call covers all 240 tools.

 

Part Probing...I use it alot for dialing parts in/setting offsets. For the acutal checking of features I worry about things like chips throwing the measurements way off.

 

I honestly think that Mori has a better machine right now. Their "DCG" technology is very solid & having the 4th axis driven directly by the motor is more solid than a worm gear.

Mori quoted $500,000 for a 8 pallet NH5000. They claim a 2 day setup time.

 

Matuura is about $600,000 to add a H-Plus 405 to our MAM cell, explanding it from 17 pallets to 27. I am guessing at least 2 weeks (it took them a month for the MAM) to be up & running.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Let me ask another question.

I'm the owner. I do most of the programming. I do most of the setups. Yada Yada.

Where do you find the qualified people to program, run, manage the schedule for a cell?

Seems to be an issue here.

[Guest]

They are available Jim, they generally won't come real cheap as they tend to KNOW what they're doing and they will desire a certain amount of autonomy.

 

Give them the parameters you wish to work with in and let them do the job for which you hired them.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Well that's exactly my point John. I am going to need someone that wants to take ownership of a set of processes. Define what it's going to take to get it done, nad make it happen.

Of course I know it ain't going to be cheap. If I wanted cheap, I'd hire my son in law.

Wait....no I wouldn't

 

And on the probing issue...

The Daewoo I'm looking at, it has laser probing. I am of the opinion I want a reap live touch probe. Not a laser.

[?Mark]

quote:

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If I wanted cheap, I'd hire my son in law.

Wait....no I wouldn't

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ROFLMAO

[iowajim62]

quote:

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Where do you find the qualified people to program, run, manage the schedule for a cell?

---

wanna talk Jim ? ask James to give Henry a holler and he'll give a reference for me

 

currently overseeing a Matsurra 405 buildup involving two 20k dual contact spindles with AI-Nano,Renishaw Lasers and MP-700 spindle probes,high pressure coolant,180 tool magazines,10 gig data servers,300 workoffsets,999 tool offsets,custom macro serial engraving with 26 pallets.

 

researched and ordered all tombstones,tool holders and tools,presetter and balancer,and programmed everything so far as well as setting up an Excel file with sheets for tooling quotes/cost,part number list,log of tools/holders/fixtures/tombs purchased/part list program list reference log, and additional Excel based Set-up/In-process sheets.

 

Been wanting to check out something new and it sounds like you wanna go where I want to live.

 

James,

quote:

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Even with Renishaw's drip rejection macro's the coolant drips get you every now & then

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Make an edit to your tool break macro for a dwell of 3-5 seconds after the rapid move to the laser, should fix that for ya

[Thee Dragracer1951]

I ain't there yet Jim. But I will be.

I have a line on a building I'm very interested in. I have a Haas Turning center that needs to go away and be replaced. I have to move my shop and think seriously about a Horiz. We aint there yet but we've started walkin in that direction.

As I get closer, I'm going to be looking for someone that wants to go there with us.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...Make an edit to your tool break macro for a dwell of 3-5 seconds after the rapid move to the laser, should fix that for ya...

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While lasers have their issuse, keep in mind touch probes do also. Each style needs to be weighed out. if one or the other does not come standard.

 

Oh, BTW, an HMC without a Tool Length Measurement/Breakage System is like a car with no gas... why bother.

 

JM2C

[MIL-TFP-41]

quote:

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Make an edit to your tool break macro for a dwell of 3-5 seconds after the rapid move to the laser, should fix that for ya

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Are you using the Matsuura macro (which does not support drip rejection at all) or the Renishaw macro (which does support drip rejection, but does not get along with the Matsuura Cell Manager & the way it handles backup tools)??

 

If you have a modified Renishaw macro that works with the cell manager I would like to take a look at it

[Jerosu]

quote:

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Oh, BTW, an HMC without a Tool Length Measurement/Breakage System is like a car with no gas... why bother.

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I think it's more like a car without brakes. You can go like heck....then what?

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Yes, that's a much better analogy.

[robk]

quote:

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Will Mastercam support Tool probing (and do you probe a tool at every toolchange??)

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I use NX4 to program (with a LOT of hand editing).

I give the operator an option of setting the TLO and/or wear comp @ every tool change or in the beginning of the program...

I also check for broken tools after I run the path. This is using Renishaw's NC4 laser.

 

quote:

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(****ATTENTION****)

(****ATTENTION****)

(****ATTENTION****)

(****ATTENTION****)

(RUN WITH BLOCK DELETE 8 ACTIVE TO SKIP TLO MEASUREMENT AT BEGINNING OF PROGRAM)

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(****ATTENTION****)

(****ATTENTION****)

(****ATTENTION****)

(****ATTENTION****)

(RUN WITH BLOCK DELETE 7 ACTIVE TO SKIP TLO MEASUREMENT AT BEGINNING OF EVERY SEQUENCE)

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/7GOTO#3901 (USE PART COUNTER TO SEARCH FOR SEQUENCE NUMBERS)

G20 G69 G80 G40 G49 G17 G90 G94

G10.9 X0. (SET RAD. MODE)

G91 G28 Z0.

G28 X0. Y0.

G90

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(SET TLO FOR ALL TOOLS EXCEPT THE RIGHT ANGLE HEAD)

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/8T24 T25 M06

/8G65 P9862 B3. T24 D24 I.375 /2S3000

/8G91 G28 X0. Y0. Z0. B0. C0.

/8T25 M06 T26

/8G65 P9862 B3. T25 D25 I.375 /2S3000

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/8T26 M06 T27

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/8T29 M06 T30

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/8T31 M06 T32

/8G65 P9862 B3. T31 D31 I.500 /2S3000

/8G91 G28 X0. Y0. Z0. B0. C0.

/8T32 M06 T33

/8G65 P9862 B3. T32 D32 I.500 /2S3000

/8G91 G28 X0. Y0. Z0. B0. C0.

/8T33 M06 T34

/8G65 P9862 B3. T33 D33 I.500 /2S3000

/8G91 G28 X0. Y0. Z0. B0. C0.

/8T34 M06 T35

/8G65 P9862 B3. T34 D34 I.500 /2S3000

/8G91 G28 X0. Y0. Z0. B0. C0.

/8T35 M06 T36

/8G65 P9862 B3. T35 D35 I.500 /2S3000

/8G91 G28 X0. Y0. Z0. B0. C0.

/8T36 M06 T37

/8G65 P9862 B3. T36 D36 I.500 /2S3000

/8G91 G28 X0. Y0. Z0. B0. C0.

/8T37 M06 T38

/8G65 P9862 B3. T37 D37 I.500 /2S3000

/8G91 G28 X0. Y0. Z0. B0. C0.

/8T38 M06 T39

/8G65 P9862 B3. T38 D38 I.250 /2S3000

/8G91 G28 X0. Y0. Z0. B0. C0.

/8T39 M06 T40

/8G65 P9862 B3. T39 D39 I.500 /2S3000

/8G91 G28 X0. Y0. Z0. B0. C0.

/8T40 M06 T42

/8G65 P9862 B3. T40 D40 I.500 /2S3000

/8G91 G28 X0. Y0. Z0. B0. C0.

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/8G65 P9862 B3. T42 D42 I.625 /2S3000

/8G91 G28 X0. Y0. Z0. B0. C0.

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/8G65 P9862 B1. T43 S3000

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/8G65 P9862 B1. T44 S3000

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/8G65 P9862 B3. T46 D46 I4.00 /2S3000

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/8T51 M06 T52

/8G65 P9862 B1. T51 S3000

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/8T52 M06 T53

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/8G91 G28 X0. Y0. Z0. B0. C0.

/8T53 M06 T54

/8G65 P9862 B1. T53 S3000

/8G91 G28 X0. Y0. Z0. B0. C0.

/8T54 M06 T58

/8G65 P9862 B1. T54 S3000

/8G91 G28 X0. Y0. Z0. B0. C0.

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/8G65 P9862 B1. T58 S3000

/8G91 G28 X0. Y0. Z0. B0. C0.

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N1 T24 T25 M06

#3901 =#4114

G20 G69 G80 G40 G49 G17 G90 G94

G10.9 X0. (SET RAD. MODE)

G91 G28 Z0.

G28 X0. Y0.

G90

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/7G65 P9862 B3. T24 D24 I.375 /2S3000

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G91 G28 Z0.

M200 (C AXIS CONNECTION)

M108 M212 ( B AXIS UNCLAMP C AXIS UNCLAMP)

G53 G90 G00 B0.

G55

G00 C30.

G00 G90 G55 X18.0344 Y1.0562

S611 M03

G43 P1 Z25. H24 M08

G61.1 (HIGH ACCURACY MODE)

G00 Z6.765

Z3.855

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G03 X17.9255 Y.8517 I.15 J-.2

G01 Y-.8516

G03 X18.0255 Y-1.0516 I.25 J0.0

G40

G01 X18.0344 Y-1.0561

G00 Z6.765

( Path Name : RUFF_MILL_2ND_LUG )

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Z3.855

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G01 Y.3406

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G40

G01 X18.0344 Y-1.0562

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( Path Name : RUFF_MILL_3RD_LUG )

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Z3.855

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G03 X18.4025 Y1.0512 I.15 J-.2

G01 Y-.9104

G03 X18.5025 Y-1.1104 I.25 J0.0

G40

G01 X18.5114 Y-1.1149

G00 Z15.

G64 M05 (CANCEL HIGH ACCURACY MODE)

G49 (CANCEL TLO)

G91 G28 X0. Y0. Z0. B0. C0.

M850 T24 S3000 W.005

M01

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quote:

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And what about part probing to generate an inspection / SPC report? Is this easily done or am I looking at an aftermarket (read In House, cause they're the best...) post?

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Here is a sample of the online inspection program. We have Renishaw OMP60 probe using NX4 to program.

 

 

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G90 G80 G40 G00

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G91 G28 X0.

G91 G28 Y0.

G91 G28 Z0.

G90

M200

N1 T120 T00 M06

G91 G28 Z0

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(*****IMS # 204*****)

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G53G90G0B90.

G55

G0C41.562

M19

G90

G55

POPEN

DPRNT [#3011[80]]

PCLOS

G00 G43 P1 H120 Z8. X20. Y-3.4

G65 P9610 Z3.082 F100.

G65 P9610 X18.35 F100.

G65 P9612 Y.30 X18. H.004 W2.

G65 P9610 X20. F100.

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(*****IMS # 206*****)

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G65 P9610 Y3.75 F100.

G65 P9610 X18. F100.

G65 P9611 Y3.55

#735 =#136

G65 P9610 X20. F100.

G65 P9610 Y-3. F100.

G65 P9610 X18. F100.

G65 P9611 Y-3.25

#736 =#136

#737 =[#735-[#736]]

G4

POPEN

DPRNT [iMS _206_1ST _LOC =#737[44]]

PCLOS

G65 P9610 X20. Y-3.4 F100.

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(*****IMS # 204*****)

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G00 G90 G55 G0 B90. C244.062

G65 P9610 Z3.082 F100.

G65 P9610 X18.35 F100.

G65 P9612 Y.30 X18. H.004 W1.

 

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[YoDoug®]

We have Renishaw TS27R contact probes in our machines. We do the same as Rob with the block skip for set-up vs production. I have my MCX post set up to use misc integers to output the renishaw macros for tool probing and broken tool detection.

 

We also do some in-process inspection. We use Renishaw Productivity+ CAM software for programming our probes. We have the ability to print out to a computer, but mostly we inspect and update wear values for DIA and length to keep parts in tolerance.

 

We have Multi-dnc software for program management. It has "live" ports that can collect real time data. We have our post customized to output dprnt info for program name, part count from macro, time, and date at the end of each cycle. This data is captured on the network, then we are working on an access data base that will automatically read that data and create production reports by shift, machine, part name, etc.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Yup. This is the stuff I wanna know.

I'm going to put together some more questions in the next couple days. I think I'm going to want to sit down and talk with a couple apps guys from each dealer. I think...

[Colin Gilchrist]

Don't forget the potential of an independent consultant to help you with your decision Jim. I work with a couple guys who are experts at horizontal programming and applications that might give you a better unbiased opinion of what each manufacturer can really do.

 

For the type of programming/machine management you are looking at, you are going to need a really good full time programmer/engineer. If I owned a shop and was looking to hire a guy like with that kind of knowledge and experience, I would expect to pay in the $35-45 per hour range.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

I would welcome talking to ore people that know more about these things than I do. I'm talking to Rick Hendrickson from this forum as well.

There are a lot of things that I need to put in place before this happens. But I'm going to move in the direction of lights out machining with Horizontals and pallet pools.

We are looking at a building that we can possibly move into in the middle of June.

There are a number of processes I need to put inplace before I get to signing the check. But we're moving in that direction.

Heck...even the wife is in agreement.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...Don't forget the potential of an independent consultant to help you with your decision Jim...

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If you go this route, make sure they have experience with a VARIETY of machine tools so they can give you the pro's AND con's of a wide variety of machine tools.

 

HTH

[Colin Gilchrist]

Rick has this experience James. He is a great guy. I'm glad you've made contact with him Jim. I've seen some of the installs he had done and it is really impressive. I know he was an AE for quite a while and has installed and done training for a multitude of different machine/cell controller setups.

 

The other thing you will not want to skimp on is Vericut. For a lights out operation on the kind of machine you are buying, it is a must have. What ever verification software you choose must be able to simulate the actual G-code that is used on the machine, and must be able to emulate every auxiliary function that machine might use. You can even use Vericut to simulate your probing routines and make sure they work. As long as you have an accurate Machine and Control built in Vericut, it will catch every error before it happens. The other bonus you can buy is Opti-Path, which uses several techniques to optimize your NC code. You can get time savings of 20-30% on most typical 3D hog-out type parts.

 

Once you have the machine and it is running smoothly, the next thing you should consider is a multi-tasking machine like the Mazak Integrex, or something along those lines, and also consider looking into a Fanuc robot for automated material handling. These days there are several companies who can install and program them.

 

Congratulations on making the decision to embrace technology and shift your stragety. I know it will pay off in the long run. I've toyed around with the notion of starting my own shop someday, and if that were to happen, I would be looking at the kind of machine and automated processes you are considering. I think it is the wave of the future. Anyone in manufacturing these days needs to leverage as much benefit as possible from technology and continually invest in modern equipment and process refinement. I wish you the best of luck Jim.