5-AXIS Machines

[SydwazShawn]

Hey guys! I have been a member here for a long time, but haven’t posted much. I have been given the opportunity to do what ever it takes to get us up to date on machining efficiencies. I am now throwing myself into the world of 5-axis programming. We want to purchase a 5-axis machine and are leaning towards a Matsuura MAM72-63V. Now

I have a few questions to ask if I could.

 

1st .. Has anyone used one of these machines and or herd anything about them? I am looking for some feedback as well as other brand recommendations.

 

2nd.. There is an option for a 20k spindle 25hp, 108.5Nm/1,320 min verses the standard 12k spindle 30hp, 183.7 Nm/1,120min. What would you guys or have you guys preferred in the 5-axis field? I am afraid if we go with the 20k it may hinder us in harder metals that a lot of aerospace parts are made from.

 

3rd.. I here people say MC isn’t as good as other CAM software when it comes to 5-axis. I don’t do any 5-axis work as of yet but from what I have seen it looks like it has a pretty good selection of tool paths. I am not going to jump ship or anything but are there any pros and cons that are a huge difference than other CAM packages?

 

4th.. Methods gives us a ready to run post, and verify simulation software with this machine. Does anyone know if its any good or not?

 

5th.. Last question!! This will have a big plus spindle on it (registers of taper and back face). What is a good brand of balanceable holders that you could recommend? I could figure this out on my own, but was wondering what the majority use.

 

Feel free to answer any or all question. I look forward to your input, and if we end up buying this machine I am sure my post count is going to get pretty huge!! LoL!!

 

Thanks, Shawn…

[MultiAxGod]

1. Haven't used a 5 axis, but their 3 axis were always good. Plus they always have a perty pink booth!!!

2. To get any high speed use the machine will have to be efficient with its motors, bearings, processing. They always used Fanuc in the past so I would assume that they would have current Fanuc Controls with high speed processing. If you still plan on using traditional machining methods of heavy cuts and feedrates, then make sure the column and supporting structure is stout and rigid.

True you typically lose torque in the higher speed motors.

3. True

4. One would assume that if Methods gives you a post to work with their machines that it would be set up to take advantage of the machines capabilities.

5. I think they use Kennametal here, some contract for total supply or something.

 

Get a tool presetter, offline and in machine (laser) and a probe. It will forever make life better for programmers and operators.

[crazy^millman]

Contact CNC apps guys he can give you the best answers to most of these question.

 

5 axis programming and Mastercam were made for each other. Give me you most difficult part and I will be glad to throw some example toolpaths on things to show how very easy it truly is.

 

 

HP at lower RPM would be my main concern. How hard are the metals you are going to be cutting? What experience do you have cutting at higher rpms? Higher feedrates? Does the company want to go to shrink fit, or hydraulic type holders? 20k rpms requires a different class of holders than 12k does.

 

 

HTH

[SydwazShawn]

Thanks for the feed back guys… We have a few machines that run @ 12K . The materials that I can think of are like 304 SST, and inconel. I myself am leaning towards a 12k spindle just for the horsepower reason.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

1 - I am totally biased. They are great machines. They have babies. Once you get one in the door, you'll get two, and then three and so on... No lie.

 

2 - Go with what your largest mix of materials is. If you machine 51% Aluminum and 49% Exotics, personally I'd go with the 20k. If it's the reverse, then the Std. 12k will suit you fine.

 

3 - It's BS. I've been using MC to program 5 Axis machines since around the V7/V8 era ... I think, maybe earlier... It's not as powerful as UG, CATIA, or NCL but for the VAST majority of the work out there it does quite well. Smurfscam, CATIA, and UG koolaiders like to say that. Truth is, if you have a decent amount of seat time in Mastercam, you'll outproduce CATIA jock and UG jock HANDS DOWN. Surfcam guy... going to depend on the jock they have a decent package but why go to another system that in all reality is only as good - at best. Does not make $ or cents to make the move.

 

4 - It's called CAMPlete. It works great with Mastercam. If you set your tools up in Mastercam the way they are in real life(length, diameter, etc... of the holder and tool), and you model your workholding, you'll get accurate collision detection and simulation. Oh, and if you use it, you are able to take advantage of it's toolpath optimization and other tools as well. All without having to purchase a post processor from your CAM vendor.

 

5 - If it were my money, I'd go with a heat shrink unit and BigPlus holders not balanceable but that's just my personal preference. The rigidity is unparalelled in heat shrink tools from my experience.

 

The machine comes with a Renishaw Laser (at least all the ones I've seen.

 

HTH

[MIL-TFP-41]

1st .. yes, we have a 17 pallet 72/63V. I know CNC Apps Guy will totally disagree with me on this one, but if we were to get another, we would get one with the Siemens 840Di control vs the fanuc. The siemens is a much more powerful control. Plus, Methods offers the 6 pallet model (I think its six) with the 840Di. After programming/running a multiple pallet machine, I think you are insane for looking at a 2 pallet.

 

2nd.. we run almost exclusively 17-4 with our 20K spindle....that wasn't the plan to start out with, but you take the jobs that you are offered. Now granted we are not running large diameter cutters, but Matsuura's 20k spindle is pretty damn tough.

 

3rd.. Mastercam is fully capable of programming these machines. I do think that the higher end packages such as powermill have some options that I would like to have/use would be nice, but that brings us to your next question....

 

4th.. The software is called CAMplete & it does things that (sorry emastercam) others wish they could do. It makes up for some of the shortcomings in Mastercam.

 

5th.. Kaiser has the patent on Big-Plus holders & they cost $$$. For collet holders & smalller diameter holders, Lyndex & others make great products for much less $$$. For larger diameter holders, the big plus is a great option

[Teh Bear without Brains kinda idiot]

12 k vs 20 ?

depends of type of work . personally for my 5x work

12000 rpm is enough .

Most of my work parts are not rigid enough for 20000 rpm or material demands lower rpm

[crazy^millman]

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5th.. Kaiser has the patent on Big-Plus holders & they cost $$$. For collet holders & smalller diameter holders, Lyndex & others make great products for much less $$$. For larger diameter holders, the big plus is a great option

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I believe that patent ran out this year and everyone is starting to offer those type of holders could be wrong though.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...I know CNC Apps Guy will totally disagree with me on this one, but ... get one with the Siemens 840Di control vs the fanuc...

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ONLY because of personal preference AND to keep uniformity in the shop. A FANUC is a FANUC, is a FANUC. It's much easeier to migrate a guy from say the VMC world to the 5ax world if the control is at least familiar. James is right though, the Siemans is more powerful from a technical standpoint.

 

One note on the Lyndex 3-Lock holders... for doing Aluminum they do work quite well. Not sure if they have a heat shrink offering or not but the high speed holders are nice. But again, if it were my dough I'd go with heat shrink. The initial investment is high because of the Heat unit, but a balancing unit is about as costly. Heat shrink holders are much less than high end collet or milling chucks.

 

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...4th.. The software is called CAMplete & it does things that (sorry emastercam) others wish they could do. It makes up for some of the shortcomings in Mastercam...

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CAMPlete is what MachineSIM wants to be when it grows up. Mu only wish for CAMPlete was that it did Verification. But hey, you can;t have everything.

[Mic]

On the Metav fair in Germany some weeks ago I spoke with a Matsuura application engineer. He said that the Siemens 840D is faster and better then it comes to 5 axis simultaneous. You can tweak the Fanuc to machine just as good but it requires a lot more work. But with that said he would still choose a Fanuc if he had his own machine. The Fanuc is much more stable and "bug" free compared to the Siemens. Just make sure to get all the Fanuc option for the controller. There is a lot of them by the way.

 

Regarding holders. Currently only 2 companies produce Big-Plus holders.

Big Daishowa ( witch holds the patent ) and Nikken. The Big-Plus patent still runs for 2 years if I remember correct. Personally I would go for Nikken holders as they are lower priced. The have 2 lines for this spindle type. 2Lock and 3Lock. 2Lock are normal Big-Plus holders and great for normal machining. 3Lock is a special Nikken design ( and patented ) and offers improved dampening especially for roughing.

[Mic]

Forgot to add. Only Big Daishowa offers headshrink holders in Big-Plus. But limited in sizes. Only from 6 to 20 mm.

 

http://www.big-daishowa.co.jp/pdf_data/shrink_chuck.pdf

 

Nikken is purely collet chucks. But very nice collet chucks.

[SydwazShawn]

Thanks again for all your replies, all this info helps a lot. I am glad to here that MC can perform well on 5-AXIS programming. I didn’t doubt its capability, but its kind of discouraging to here other’s put it down. I myself have to much invested in MC to change, and after what you guys have stated there is no reason I should ever stray. I only have so much time in my life to start over and learn new things. LoL!!!!

 

It looks like Matsuura ships mainly the Fanuc control as there default. I can wait half a year to get a 840DI. They have machines in stock ready to ship with the Fanuc control, so I don’t see us special ordering a machine with the other controller.

 

I talked to our seller and the majority of machines sold have the Fanuc control, and a 12k spindle with 800psi thru coolant. I think this will probably be fine for us. If we end up getting one it will be a 2 pallet capable of adding on a pallet pool. It will have the probing and laser detection as well.

 

 

CNC APPS GUY, MIC, JMC,CRAZY M,WINNIE POO, MULTI GOD!! Do you guys run all big plus holder or a mix? Also on the Camplete can that be used to verify our NL3000 Y Mori Seiki lathe? If not what could be used to verify live tooling lathes?

 

Once again thanks for all the input on holders, and everything else it’s greatly appreciated. I may sound a little uneducated on this topic, and that’s because I am but it’s a big investment for us so I want to get it right.

 

Shawn…

[Mic]

I would never mix holders in a Big-Plus spindle. With a Big-Plus holder in a Big-Plus you've flange contact, but if you have a normal BT40 holder in a Big-Plus you've a gap between the spindlenose and holder. And with a gap there is a possibility to get dirt/chips in between. Now imagine how your spindle would look like next time you change in a Big-Plus holder. Not good.

[SydwazShawn]

Good point!! I wasnt sure how it actually works, but now I understand. Thanks

[crazy^millman]

Well on this I will dis agree for certain things Big-plus all the way on others no. We run a mix of Big-Plus and Standard Ct40 on our Integrex with no problems. Save tons of Money for drilling holders, and smaller holder and spend the big bucks of face mill holders, on long reach tools as well as big dia holders. over 2 years doing this on Materials up to 58 rc with no problems.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...Also on the Camplete can that be used to verify our NL3000 Y Mori Seiki lathe

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No, only Matsuuras

 

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...If not what could be used to verify live tooling lathes?

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My gut tells me you'd need Vericut because I'm not sure about Predator's capabilities on the Turning front. Perhaps one of our seasoned Predator guys like gcode or CADCAM could chime in.

[MIL-TFP-41]

^^^^ I agree with Ron. Have never had a problem mixing holders.

 

I only wish CAMplete supported Mori lathes...but AFAIK, there are no plans in the future to support lathes...(not counting the Matsuura Cublex)

[Thee Dragracer1951]

That's a good point. I have a Big Plus machine on the way. Been thinking about how many big plus holders to get. It's a 120 tool machine. Looks like I need about 200.

Or more....

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

CUBLEX....

 

YUM!!!! THAT machine kicks serious @$$

[?Mark]

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Have never had a problem mixing holders

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Same here.

Also what Ron said:

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Save tons of Money for drilling holders, and smaller holder and spend the big bucks of face mill holders, on long reach tools as well as big dia holders

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+1000

[SydwazShawn]

Well its good to here you can mix and match with no problems to speak of. Although I could see what MIC said, it could maybe happen as well. I was some what worried about all the money adding up in tooling. Whoops scratch that, my boss was worried!! LoL!!

 

Anyway could anyone tell me around about how much Vericut is?

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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Have never had a problem mixing holders

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Make part of your daily maintenance to wipe the spindle face to keep it clean.

 

JM2C