My job offer

[Reverend Turk]

I have been looking for a new job. I have decided that my strength lies in programming. I am pretty much self taught other than a 3 day class at our shop when we first got MC. Since then I have been teaching myself and we do not use MC everyday being we are a prototype shop and a lot of the things we make can be done easily on a prototrak.

 

Having said this I was offered a job as a programmer. I was hoping to get into a shop where I could learn from experts and move up in the company. However, they want me to work with their current programmer for a couple weeks and then I will be on my own and he will be leaving. I stressed to them I was mostly self taught and that I am a mill guy with only one basic program under my belt on a lathe using MC.

 

At this new job they need me to program for Haas machines and Cinci lathes. I feel I might be getting in over my head a bit but to turn down a job in this economy seems crazy. Any suggestions?

 

I am leaving my government job because I want to move up in a company and have the opportunity to grow in the industry. AT my current job I will never get any better than I am currently.

 

 

I will be heading out to a test they are giving me today. They want me to program a part for them.

 

 

I would hate to take the job, if they offer it to me, and then be over my head and get fired and be jobless. Like I said, not the situation I really wanted as I wanted to learn from some of the best but it is a programming job....with my own office.

[mcpgmr]

Hey Turk your nervous and that's normal. Just be up front with them and you will be fine. Their programmer is leaving anyway so they should allow you the time you need to get up to speed. Listen to the guys on the floor and be as diplomatic with them as you can. You will learn what the company expects from you through them. The last thing you want to do is go in half cocked and xxxx people off. Good luck!

[Reverend Turk]

I have told them over and over that I am pretty much self taught and that I may not know exactly what they want but I do know mastercam and in the right atmosphere I can become a great programmer...this I know.

 

And yeah, I am very nervous. I have no intention of going in half cocked. I want to be able to devlop good working relationships with the guys on the floor so I can learn from them.

[ReDEyZZ]

If you know Mill well, and you know the basic manual lathe principles, programming lathe is very easy IMO. A few snags along the way for me, but doing a simple search in the forum solved most issues.

 

Get to know a few of their lathe programs, see what speeds and feeds the machines/inserts can handle, see what DOC they are pushing as well. This will help to put out a program that they are used to, and that the machines can handle.

 

have you seen the type of work they do?

 

Are you somewhat confident your skills are suitable for the work?

 

If so, go for it.

 

Best of luck in your decision.

[Reverend Turk]

I have seen a few things they do and I feel I can do some of what they showed me. I think developing the proper speeds and feeds will be big for me and programming the lathes and anything 4th axis.

 

They have a 4th axis on one mill and I have never programmed anything more than 3. I really want to learn to go 4 and 5 in the future.

 

I know they do some 3d work and I am a little rough at that but I can do it. I started working part time in a mold shop 6 months ago and that is all 3d work but I am once again teaching myself so I am certain I am not doing it the most efficient way.

 

I guess I will take this test today and see what they think. They want to pay me "around $20/hr" Currently I make 18 at one job and 26 at the other. I can't work for anything less than 22 so I am going to make that known to them today.

 

Leaving the government and all the sick leave and vacation leave that we earn is a big deal so if they are gonna pay me less then I need what I am asking for and not what they want to pay me.

 

 

I will keep everyone updated.

 

Am I being to unreasonable?

 

 

BTWS..every pay period for the government I get 6 hours of annual leave and 4 hours of sick time...so you can see why it is tough to leave.

[chopsley]

Turk,

 

Just be aware that on the older Cinci lathes boring bars are programmed with gauge lengths, in x and z. Just look at some sample programs with that in mind and it should make sense. I'm sure you will do just fine. I'm an old Buckeye myself. I was born in Dayton. Lived in Wilmington until I was 10.

 

Good luck pal...

 

[BrianP.]

Turk,

 

I too am self taught on Mastercam. I have had the same concerns as you being self taught and never having taken any classes at all. In my currennt position I do all the programming for a small shop, all mills at this time. With that being said I believe that classes are not that important. Classes can only give you a start in my opinion. You can't learn all there is to Mastercam in a couple of 8 hour classes just ask anyone on here. What is important is the willingness to learn, take suggestions, and being open minded. Use the resources availble to you through your reseller with the service contract. They do carry a service contract right? The reseller in our area offers once a month tech days and I've been to a couple of those. The forum here has also helped. Just don't short change yourself because your self taught. Make sure you get everything you want going in the door. Promises are a dime a dozen. Benefits such as sick time and vacation time are negotiable. People with extensive machining and programming backgrounds are getting harder and harder to find. The most common thing I hear when interviewing is that it is so hard to find people let alone good ones willing to work.

 

Good Luck.

[Reverend Turk]

I am more experienced as a mill programmer but not in a regular shop. Working where I do I am not worried about profit or anything else so my processes would be totally different than someone in a "real world shop"

 

I guess only time will tell. I am not sure this is the right job for me.

 

I would love to find a job working with another programmer so I can learn and share ideas with this person.

 

Anyone that might be aware of an opportunity like this please let me know.

[Jim at Gentex]

quote:

---

I was hoping to get into a shop where I could learn from experts and move up in the company.

---

Turk,

Yes, it's completely understandable for you to be apprehensive going in.

 

Having said that, always remember there are more Mastercam experts here in this forum than you will find in any one single shop.

 

I also like the idea of asking your new employer if they will invest in sending you to some formal training at your Mastercam reseller, or arrange for a trainer to come to your facility.

 

Either way, I'm sure they will understand that there will be a learning curve and that they should not expect 100% output from you until you reach a certain comfort level. It's all about confidence in yourself and learning how the software can be used to its full potential. You will only develop that by getting enough 'seat time' with the software, and by learning the system of how things are done in the new shop.

 

I'm sure you'll be just fine.

 

Good luck, and don't forget to use the forum to help if you get stuck!

[Joe788]

As has already been mentioned....Kiss the xxxx of anybody and everybody on the shop floor! These are the people that will make or break your employment at this company.

 

There will likely already be bitterness from some of them who have (or had) aspirations of becoming the new programmer when the other guy left. Do everything THEIR way for awhile, even if you notice stuff that can be done better.

[Reverend Turk]

All great ideas thus far. Thanks to everyone that has posted here. I am still waiting to hear from them as today was supposed to be the day they called me with an offer.

 

If anyone hears of anything in or around Dayton,Ohio please let me know.

[Cad-Camr]

Attitude is everything. Show a strong willingness to learn. Go the extra mile to help floor personnel. Get together with operators and get input and feed back on processes. Use existng program formats to help you in areas your not so familiar with. You'll be fine. Good Luck!

[JNO]

quote:

---

I guess only time will tell. I am not sure this is the right job for me.

---

I know the feeling. It is one of the toughest decisions you will make. Leaving a decent job for an uncertain one, especially one that you don't know if you are qualified for, is a decision only you can make, and live with.

If the other programmer is leaving, it sounds like it may be a sink or swim deal. I think if you are honest with them, you will know if it is the right job for you. Good Luck

 

 

quote:

---

.every pay period for the government I get 6 hours of annual leave and 4 hours of sick time...so you can see why it is tough to leave.

---

When are you leaving? I may want to apply.

[Reverend Turk]

HAHA..Yeah, the more I think about it the more I feel this job is not for me. I have been up front with them but my words seem to go in one ear and out the other. Plus I have heard some negative things that seem to be ongoing issues.

 

Also, they were supposed to call me yesterday and I heard nothing.

 

Time to keep looking...

[Don M]

These are all good posts.

Keep in mind what Jim says (quoted below).

Good luck with whatever happens.

 

quote:

---

Having said that, always remember there are more Mastercam experts here in this forum than you will find in any one single shop.

---

[JNO]

quote:

---

Time to keep looking...

---

Sounds like you have made up your mind already.

[TomR]

Turk.

Private industry is a far cry from Government work. In most cases, fringe benefits don't even come close to what you get now and job security for the new guy is almost non-existent. In today's market, there are plenty of unemployed competent and experienced programers to give you competition and making a change for a $2 or $3 increase per hour will not cover what you give up on fringe benefits.

If I were in your shoes, I would wait until the economy improves and then find a good moldmaking shop to hone my skills.

Whatever you decide I wish you well.

Tom R.

[Philcott]

I think Tom is probably right.

 

Use the next number of months to bring yourself up to speed on the mastercam features you are not familiar with and then when things get better you can go out with confidence to find a new job.

 

Also, sometimes the best job is the one you already have. Not always, but sometimes.

[Dave.L]

I own and operate a small engineering and manufacturing company. In our area, even with this economy, there is NOT a bunch of competent, un-employed programmers. Also, Any good company will take there time to see if the new prospective employee is a good fit before bringing them on especially if you are leaving a gainfully employed position.

 

It’s always important for the employer and the employee to get to know each other as well as possible before jumping in the water together. Both parties want it to be a success. So, with that said, it sounds like you have done a good job of making your abilities (strengths and weakness) well know to the prospective employer. Also, companies LIKE self taught people because true problem solvers know how to “get unstuck” without someone else holding their hand every step on the way. Personally, I prefer a great attitude and willingness to learn over a guy with lots of experience that can’t think out-of-the-box and thinks he knows it all. Well seasoned people know that learning never stops and there is always another way to do it.

 

Life is full of risks and you will be rewarded based on the risks you take, but, take them with caution. It’s apparent that you are doing just that. Get to know the employer, let them get to know you, and it looks right – do it! Look toward long term compensation (enjoyment, salary and benefits) not short term for it’s the only way you will be truly successful.

[Guest]

For someone just starting out training can be an intricate part to getting them off the floor and getting them started.

 

I too am self-taught, however at one point I did take some classes as more of a refresher than anything else, at that time taught be Peter Scott.

 

Having taught classes with people of different abilities I can say that even a seasoned person taking a class can certainly take some positive things away. You also get different levels of questions from the different level students, this helps the overall class by helping the newer students get answers to questions they have not even gotten to asking yet.

 

Good training and good support go a long way to making a good user.

 

[nine blue]

My advice is to stay where you are at.

In today's economy sick leave,vacation,medical and retirement programs are pure gold.

Private sector companies will cut you loose in a heartbeat if they think they can get it made cheaper overseas.

Our government gives tax breaks to companies that want to set up overseas and American banks make loans to Chinese companies to buy new buildings and equipment while we over here in the US struggle to keep up in old worn out buildings with out dated equipment.

I got laid off about 6 months ago and it is just depressing to go around at the different shops and see how they are struggling to compete with people overseas who are getting paid about $200 a month.

If you have the opportunity take programming classes at a local community college and on line courses for 5 axis machining.

Manufacturing in the US is at a critical crossroads and no one knows which path it will take.

Best of luck to you on whatever choice you make.

[Jim at Gentex]

quote:

---

I have been up front with them but my words seem to go in one ear and out the other. Plus I have heard some negative things that seem to be ongoing issues.

---

One of the first questions that came to my mind was to try to find out why the current programmer there is leaving.

 

That should tell you all you need to know.

[Reverend Turk]

How can you learn 5 axis if you do not have a machine to play with? I really want to become a better programmer as my skills now are rough but I have been told that this is where my talent seems to be.

[Ron Branch @ Verisurf]

Learning 5 axis programming without a machine seems like a daunting task. The real task is the mind set IMHO. You have to think in a different approach and direction and the sooner you start doing things in the programming area the sooner you can adjust your brain to think that way. Learning a language requires that you start off by learning the basics. A lot of people who learn a new language never even go to the country that speaks that language. They start with baby steps by exposing themselves to words, to phrases, then to sentences. The I do not have a 5 axis machine is a cop out sorry to say. Do you ever take a part you are doing and try to think how you would approach it if you had a 5 axis machine? Do you ever design fixtures for a 5 axis machine like you had one? Do you ever make toolpaths for parts you have like they are on a 5 axis machine? Do you know all the 5 axis toolpaths? How many books have you bought on 5 axis? Have you got a demo CD so you can play with 5 axis toolpaths even if you do not have that level of Mastercam at your shop? Do you read all you can read about 5 axis machining in trade books? Do you have copies of those articles someone for reference? How many topics have you copied off of here that talk about 5 axis so when you do get your chance you got some information to go back and look at? Think about where your comfort level is?? I have had over 25 jobs and I left Florida and moved out here because I wanted to be challenged. Life makes no way for those that play it safe. I have learned so much just by not playing it safe.

 

What does being self taught show people? Does it show them you got strength? Does it show them you have intelligence? Does it show them you are willing to do what it takes to get the job done? Does it show them you do not like taking no for an answer? Does it show them you do not like hearing it can't be done? Or that you are one that likes a challenge? People try to tell me all the time I am smart I tell them I am not smart I just have experience and that is what separates me from others not any thing about being smarter. I worked 5 years when I was younger never getting a raise going from shop to shop learning and getting experience. I could not do that now because I have a family, though if I could go to a shop and make the same money and felt I would really learn something new I would do it in a heartbeat. I like where I work, but I like the challenge of learning something. I like the work of figuring something out. I like teaching others as much as I like learning from others. Take what you can and learn what you can from anything presented to you. When you play it safe and think you can't you already have decided it can not be. May you lose something yeah you might, but you may also gain some experience you would have never gained any other way. I have worked in some really bad places and worked for some people that would make most cringe just hearing about it. I always tired to give back more than I ever got from anything.

 

Take my current situation I am working 2 different jobs right now. I am very lucky to be able to learn and keep getting experience unlike any other. I took a risk, but so grateful I was given the chance I was and keep being given to grow and keep getting more experience. Not because I am smarter, but because I am willing to take a big risk.

 

[ 04-22-2009, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Ron Branch V & M Precision ]

[kccadcam]

Well said Ron,,, I totally agree....

 

You should get hold of any and all books, software,

and info possible. You CAN learn alot without a machine in front of you.

 

And as I always say --- Read, read, read, until your eyes bleed!!!!