Prototrak reliability and performance ?

[gary adams]

We are considering using a prototrak cnc control, retrofitted to a knee type turret mill. I would like to hear from any uses that can attest to its reliability and general usefullness. We have a good manual machinist who is not comfortable with our production cnc machines (mostly fanuc g code),but from the sales information I have seen may respond well to the prototak control. It will be light work jigs and fixtures or short run stuff. Any opinions would be appreciated.

Gary

[Reko]

I'd just buy a VF-1 Haas with the tool changer. Sure it costs a bit more, but the usefulness is not even comparable. The Haas will be a money maker for years and years. You can do pretty much anything with that machine, including production if you need the extra machine. The controller is simple and will do anything a knee type turret mill will do and a lot more. You'll easily make your money back with this type of machine.

 

I've just never been impressed with a CNC Bridgeport, which is basically what you're talking about getting. Not rigid enough, no tool changer, speeds are slow (I believe the VF-1 rapids at 700 IPM!) and on and on.

 

Again, if you can afford it, take a step up. I'm sure your operator will like the simple controls.

 

IMO.

[gary adams]

Thanks for your input,and its difficult to argue with, but here is our thinking on it.

A Bridgport type machine to us about $21000 the retro fit $18000, a Hass would be around $100000. That difference would have to be redeemed working 10 -20 hrs a week on 1offs or fixture work. We have the production CNC's and are aware of there worth but I just feel there may be a place for the prototrak prviding it is reliable. By the way my figures are aussie dollars.

Gary

[Brendan O' Regan]

We have a prototrak cnc control here. It runs beside our machinnig centres and we find its a great machine for simple parts with not many too changes. Faster to program and set up.

 

We have it on the floor now for about 5 years now and have never had a serious problem with it. Only a interlock had to be replaced.

 

We have started to program it with mastercam but I don't have a bullet proof post for it yet. Every once in a while extra moves pop into the program which has scrapped parts.

[Colin Gilchrist]

Well first I will say that I learned how to program on a prototrak as the first machine I actually programmed a real job on.

 

The control is simple and intuitive.

 

You do have to program at the control, which can take some time. At least that is what I would expect from your machinist, as you say he has trouble with your other cnc machines.

 

The machines are really only good to about +-.001 on contouring/hole positioning, but they are nice machines.

 

Are you getting the programmable 3rd axis? I personally go really tired of having to set the depth stop on the quill and manually retract and lower the tool.

 

That being said, you can get a decent Haas machine for about $40-50k. $100k for a Haas would get you a huge machine like a VF-4 size.

[Odell]

Gary, A small Hass (NEW TR-1)only cost around 25k. You can get one well equipped for 40K.....You would more then make your money back.

[Kevangel]

I thought the USA dollar was devalued 40 percent to the Aussie dollar about a year ago? Does our equipment seem like a real bargain to you? WE have a steady stream of Proto-traks at auction in Ohio, so here I would buy a used machine at auction for way less money. I just had the prototrak dealer demo them for me, they have their place for sure. Good support for them.

[chris m]

Man, you could buy a Sharp, or some similar Bridgeport knockoff, with a 2-axis ProtoTrak on it for less than $20K a few years ago. The ProtoTrak is a decent rig, the new ones allow you to set work offsets, program from dxf files, etc, and the subroutines are significantly better than they used to be [pocketing, in particular, was horrible 10 years ago]. If you buy this type of machine, make sure that you get some kind of quick-change in the spindle; R8 collets with a CNC are a lousy combination.

 

C

[Newbeeee™]

We have a prototrak mill (2x axis) and a prototrak lathe.

With the right work (2nd opping, prototype and tooling) they will earn you a bucket of money.

Just use them for what they are - simple minimum tool change type work.

As Colin said, +/- a thou is ok (it interpolates within a thou of roundness).

HTH

[KMartin]

What really sucks is the mess they make.

I would never buy one . The machine has to

be inclosed .

 

MasterCam X4 MU3

Mill Level 3/Solids

Intel 5150 2.66GHz, 2.0 GB RAM

Windows XP Pro SP3

NVIDIA Quadro FX 3450

[Fred from Université de Sherbrooke]

It depend on what you plan to do with the machine. I've a little Tormach cnc mill that do a really good job for prototype. It'll cost you a fraction of a retrofit.

[gary adams]

Thanks for the replies, the price for the retrofitted bridgeport type (new machine + contol) has been quoted from a reputable supplier, the Hass price was based on several years ago we got them to quote a 1000mm x 500 x 500 (apprx) and it was $140000. I will get current pricing an a VF1, and do a proper comparison. The supplier for the bridgeport type also offer what they call a bed mill, with a 1900mm table and 1500mm of travel x axis Prototrak fitted for $58000.

Gary

[Kevangel]

Gary what does a top toolmaker/ prototype CNC machinist make down there on the hour?

[Dave.L]

quote:

---

What really sucks is the mess they make.

I would never buy one . The machine has to

be inclosed .

---

We had 2 DPM bedmills, about 30-35K new, CAT40 spindles. Yes, they make a mess. But, for one offs and toolroom work, they are awesome. The control is easy to program and fast.

[Odell]

Haas VF-1 20" x 16" x 20" start at around 44k

[chris m]

We have [2] of the DPM bed mills and I don't think they're worth the dough. If you are going to spend DPM money buy a VF2; VF1 is just a big box with no machine inside and has 1/2 the X travel of a big Bridgeport. The DPM CAT40 spindle is nice, but the headstock is fixed [no swing like a Bridgeport] and for one-offs, unless you will be surfacing, the 3rd access has limited value IMO

[Bob W.]

Remember folks, Gary's prices are in Aussie dollars, not US dollars. What is $140k Aussie dollars in US dollars?

[Dave.L]

quote:

---

We have [2] of the DPM bed mills and I don't think they're worth the dough.

---

Compared to a full machining center, most toolroom CNC mills are expensive.

 

quote:

---

If you are going to spend DPM money buy a VF2

---

Apples and Oranges. A machining center and a prototype CNC mill serve two very different purposes. Plus, with the protoTRAK control, you will run circles around any G-code machine when programming at the machine which is the intent of prototype mills.

 

quote:

---

The DPM CAT40 spindle is nice, but the headstock is fixed [no swing like a Bridgeport]

---

Not totally true. They offer two models, one has more of a machining center head, the other has a bridgeport style head. With that model, you can pivot the head to the right or left to do angle work.

 

http://www.southwesternindustries.com/swi/...bedmills1.shtml

[Colin Gilchrist]

I totally missed that you were in Australia...

 

Get the prototrak.

[gary adams]

Many thanks all, I greatly appreciate the comments. Interestingly it seems in Ausralia we pay almost double the price for an American machine that you guys do in the states. If a Haas (yes I have the spelling now) were available at around $44000 I would buy it alas it is not.

Gary

[gary adams]

Forgot the question earlier, we are not toolmakers, I guess we are cnc operator programers more general engineering, our guys cost us around $33. aussie per hour, that includes holidays and pensions (4 weeks annual leave, I think 7 public holidays and 5 days per year not requiring a doctors certificate, plus 10 days with doctors certificate). Socialism is a wonderfull thing for some, although I must say I cant complain with the effort of our guys.

Gary

[chris m]

quote:

---

Apples and Oranges. A machining center and a prototype CNC mill serve two very different purposes.

---

Pardon my French, but, no sh!t. What I am saying is that the 2-axis Prototrak on a Bridgeport knockoff machine is well worth the money, but IMO (and we own [2] of them) the 3-axis is not as it costs just as much as a VMC and doesn't give you nearly the capability.

 

quote:

---

Plus, with the protoTRAK control, you will run circles around any G-code machine when programming at the machine which is the intent of prototype mills.

---

Haas' Visual Quick Code is pretty good

 

quote:

---

They offer two models, one has more of a machining center head, the other has a bridgeport style head. With that model, you can pivot the head to the right or left to do angle work.

---

Yes, ours 'tilt' to do angle work, but I don't believe any of the bed mills 'swing' left to right like a Bridgeport does. This is a PITA if you have long parts that you want to strap to the side of the table for end work.

 

C