O/T but i'm curious

[Mark Lovelace]

Apologies in advance for the length of this, but here goes...

 

This war has nothing to do with liberation. Certainly, many Iraqis will likely be happy to be rid of Saddam Hussein, but no one truly knows whether or not the Iraqis, as a people, actually want to be ‘liberated’. Given the tight reigns on information in Iraq, it is likely that even the Iraqi people themselves don’t know. Ultimately, though, even if Iraqis were overwhelmingly elated at the ousting of Saddam, that would only be a fortunate byproduct of this war.

 

Neither is this the ‘war for oil’ that many opponents have labeled it. While the US will certainly have greater control of and access to Iraq’s oil fields as a result of this war that, too, is just a benefit, and not the goal itself.

 

No, the goal of this war is expansion of American power. War is the exercise of power to achieve an end, but in this case the end and the means are one and the same. Military power is being used to increase global power.

 

This is mapped out quite clearly in a 1999 report upon which the Bush defense strategy is based. That report, by a group called the “Project for a New American Century” was authored in part by Paul Wolfowitz, and is based largely upon the policies of Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld under the first Bush administration.

 

The report outlines a plan “to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests.” On the subject of Iraq, the report states “Indeed, the United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein.” It goes on to say “From an American perspective, the value of such bases would endure even should Saddam pass from the scene.” Nowhere does it mention ‘liberation’ or ‘democracy’.

 

The report coined the phrase “Homeland Security”, two years before 9/11. It calls for deployment of global missile defenses “to provide a secure basis for U.S. power projection around the world.” It also calls on the incoming administration to “Control the new ‘International Commons’ of space and ‘Cyberspace’, and pave the way for the creation of a new military service – U.S. Space Forces – with the mission of space control.” Really.

 

Perhaps the most telling part of the document is the assertion that the US should prevent the rise of other countries to ‘Great Nation’ status. This doesn’t apply only to nations such as China or North Korea, but to any nation or alliance of nations that could inhibit America’s global objectives. It decries the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty as “consisting of some 150 states, whose principal effect would be to constrain America's unique role.” It goes on to warn of “European moves toward an independent defense ‘identity’ and policy”, adding”…it is important that NATO not be replaced by the European Union, leaving the United States without a voice in European security affairs.”

 

In reading this plan, it becomes apparent that the current rift between Europe and the Bush administration was no accident. Rather, as a means of projecting U.S. power, the Bush administration sought to assert dominance over their ‘allies’ in Europe. Pitting ‘Old’ and ‘New’ Europe against each other prevented our allies from unifying, and thus kept them subservient to us. Divide and conquer. Oldest trick in the book.

 

Some in America may say “So what? Sounds good to me!” And from a singly American perspective, it does make strategic sense. But it also makes it very obvious that the whole world, our enemies and allies alike, have valid reasons to be concerned about the threat posed by an unchecked U.S. power.

 

The best way for us to imagine what that threat looks like to another nation is to imagine that the roles are switched. Let’s imagine that France is the dominant power in the world, and seeking to expand that power for their own ‘national interests’. Imagine that France is stationing troops here, ostensibly to protect us from the bordering threats of Cuba and Russia, but also to keep us subservient. Imagine that they are inserting themselves into our treaties with our neighbors and interfering with our own security affairs. Imagine that they are actively preventing us from developing our own defenses, and preventing us from making strategic alliances with other countries.

 

Now imagine that they are also forcing us to open up our markets to them. Every where you go, you see French products, you hear French music, and you eat French food (french fries, anyone?) French movies, French television, and French culture are everywhere. Your children all learn French in school. You can’t get away from it.

 

I don’t imagine that many of you posting here would care for that. I’d imagine that many of you would be saying the very same things about France that you are saying now. Your comments about shutting the door on anyone who is not an American, or shooting anyone who crosses our border, would have a different tone if you were in a country that is occupied or otherwise dominated by another. You might burn French flags, or renounce your French heritage. You’d scream “OUT!!!!!” You might curse them because they don’t pray to “the one true God”. You might even band together to fight back.

 

And then people in France would say “There are fanatics in the world who want to kill us. Let’s wipe ‘em out”.

 

[ 03-23-2003, 02:10 AM: Message edited by: Mark Lovelace ]

[Mark Lovelace]

Side note:

 

James, I have great respect for your knowledge of MasterCam, and trust that you are well compensated for it. Based on that, and where you live, I'm making a guess at how much you earn. If you are making $12K a year more than you were 4 years ago, that's just keeping up with inflation. Doesn't exactly make the case for the Bush economy.

 

Trevor, if immigrants get better health care than you, maybe you should take that up with your employer.

[Chris Rizzo]

Mark,

Good to see yet another who cares for our country deeply enough to examine the obscured and underlying direction we are headed. I have been reading a bit about the New American Century doctrine, and also Wolfowitz's Defense Stratagy Guideline, dating back to 1992. Instead of going into the long of it here, everyone should read it for themselves...

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...hemes/1992.html

 

but just to spark your interst-

 

quote:

---

Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz has been at the center of Pentagon strategic planning in both Bush administrations. A hawk on the use of U.S. military power, Wolfowitz took a lead in drafting the 1992 "Defense Planning Guidance" -- a set of guidelines on America's military posture toward the world. The draft said that containment was an old idea, a relic of the cold war. It advocated that America should maintain military strength beyond challenge and use it to preempt provocations from rogue states with weapons of mass destruction. And it stated that, if necessary, the U.S. should be prepared to act alone. Leaked to the press, Wolfowitz's draft was rewritten and softened by then-Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney.

---

Not sure if you've seen any of this PBS Frontline series regarding the Middle East/Iraq, but it is something that both sides, prowar and antiwar, should watch. It is very neutral in presention, and provides fascinating information. Incredibly in depth, starting with Hussein as a child. It provides points and perspective which would help both sides of this debate understand each other...

[kathy]

Mark –

 

Interesting post.

 

I have also heard that perspective on America expansion of power and it is very persuasive. Thank you for presenting some good background information.

 

The analogy of France conquering is excellent!

 

I feel that the majority of people in this country don’t realize how the populace can be manipulated and swayed. Shall we re-visit the old argument of whether Roosevelt knew about the attack on Pearl Harbor?

 

I feel that original / free / rational thinkers makes this great country of ours great (along with all the other contributors of course).

 

The congressional document bothers me because I feel it is a compromise to our essential ‘Balance of Power’

 

Kathy

[Trevor Bailey]

Mark,

 

Does it not bother you that when someone from another countrywalks accross our borders, they are automatically given health care, food stamps, lodging, etc...

 

Thank you for pointing out my statement about the health thing. I am sure that particular one needed further explaining for you and the other member, CMR, since obviously you can not undertand a simple "pun" or even such a radicul point as I was trying to point out.

 

This will be my last thread on this topic, because the more I read, the more angry I get at my fellow Americans that just do not see any wrong outside of the US and has the nerve to stand up and insinuate that what is happening is maybe the US's fault. This is unbelieveable. I know that I am about to be way out of line here, but there are a few in this forum that if I was to see them walking down the street, I don't think that I could resist the erge to throw a grand elbow to jaw of one of you protestors. Because from my "limited" understanding of the way the world works, I guess. Maybe it was all my travels to 14 other countries and meeting natives in all of them, has brought the very hazy fog to my mind.

 

You people should be ashamed of how you represent you country Rekd, James, Bucket Head, etc.... Keep up the good fight. I am too disgusted to carry on, Back to Mastercam.

[Mark Lovelace]

Trevor, where in my post did I say whether I am for or against this war? I only tried to point out the reality that our government, like most others on the planet, does not put soldiers in harms way for altruistic reasons.

 

I also tried to point out that certain attitudes displayed in this thread have a lot in common with the nationalist, xenophobic, religious fundamentalists that we are at war with. Personally, I believe that we dishonor our country when we discourage dialogue, and demand blind obeisance to our leaders. I believe it is un-American to talk of beating up those with whom we disagree, or dismantling the constitution. Those are not the words of a patriot. They are the words of an extremist.

 

Lastly, when you refer to 'the one true God,' I trust that you are aware that Muslims and Christians pray to the same God. Muslims just follow the teachings of a different prophet.

 

[ 03-23-2003, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Mark Lovelace ]

[Brendan P]

Trevor,

I too get "DISGUSTED" with some of the posts I

read here.

But because of our freedom of speech,they too are

entitled to their "objectional opinions".

I happen to LOVE this country,and could not even

percieve living under the rule of a SCUM like

Saddam Hussein!(or others for that matter)

Obviously these objectional persons must be able

to see themselves having "NO PROBLEMS" living in

conditions like these.

I welcome them to live there!

I will continue to live here FREE,and support my

"un-communistic like" country called UNITED STATES of AMERICA!

I will continue to support our troops and the families who have their loved ones taken away from them at this time.

It is a shame that there a lot of people in our country that would rather have all of us "curl up into a fetal position" and hope that it all goes away.

Anyone who thinks that Iraq does not posess bio-weapons,or any others that are un-conventional has a screw loose in his/her head!

Saddam is a master of making people believe that he is such a nice guy.(to the people who are fooled).

I am a true american and WILL NOT turn my back on this GREAT country.

This being said...

I too will not be replying to this thread because

it makes me sick to read what others (who seem to only love this country when our economy is great,there is no war,there is no media to challenge,should I go on...)have to say.

I have this Freedom to choose not to write on this thread anymore.

This is a great forum and it is best if I do not

get into any real heated discussions here.

I do respect all in this forum,and do not want to

say things I may regret.

I am respectfully "bowing out" of this one.

[CAM-mando]

Some thoughts to ponder ...

 

It would be nice if the whole world could get along. Unfortunately it cant. It is apparently the nature of human kind to destroy itself. The world is full of "regimes" large and small that do not respect the "ways" of others. Only their way is the right way. There are elements of this in American society as well. The cited doctrine does not seek to make the easterners into westerners. It simply recognizes that rogue nations may come to "power" by the increasing availablity of WMD combined with increasing acts of terrorism. And that they likely will not utilize a policy of deterance as we have since WWII. Therefore it concludes "pre-emption" would be required to avoid large scale conflict. The lifestyle that many of us and our parents have enjoyed is dirrectly related to establishment and implementatyion of various "doctrine" over the years. These have changed as the geopolitical climate has changed. In the 70's it was easy. The hole world basically hopped that the Russians and Americans stayed cool enough not to blow the world up 50 times over. Everything else paled in comparison to this threat.

 

Foreign policy is an ugly business. Certainly not one that I could operate in. There is much that is troubling to me. But before you go off half cocked extrapolating a few paragraphs of 12 year old document into the prophecy of todays events insinuating that the US is doing something wrong for CONSIDERING what methods maight best protect our interests, I suggest you look around the globe at the alternatives. I personnaly am concerned by many policies and practices that exist in our foreign policy and its execution. BUT it is a reality that defending the American way of life including our constitional and God given rights and our right to prosper is not something that comes easy. If people understand this, are willing to live with the alternatives and condemn US policy in a time of war regardless of consequences. So be it. I am not willing to do this. What is disturbing to me is that some people want to take a glimpse at the "belly of the beast" and take that little snapshot back into the comfort of their little bubble in which they live and complain about what they saw. For many they just wont look and thus will remain less disturbed. The reality is that that little bubble can be burst. 9/11 was a very small example of that.

 

Make no mistake about this... THERE HAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE A MAJOR WORLD POWER. The only question is who it will be and how responsible will they be with that power. Call me naive but I thik the US has handled this power fairly responsibly.

 

"Where is the MATRIX ... its all around you"

 

BTW Kathy, in the warpowers resolution you linked to, the attempted assination of the first President Bush in Kuwait was mentioned. I trust you will inquire with some of the Pro-Iraq camp to see how they feel about that illegal action as well ?

 

[ 03-23-2003, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: CAMmando ]

[Jack Mitchell]

I hope that I have not angered other forum members with my opinions of this very sensitive subject; this is not a deliberate attempt to draw anybody’s ire.

 

Yes, I am quite opinionated and also quite opposed to these events, I usually expect a bash since I often have a different outlook than others; this does not make me correct nor does it make an opposing opinion correct, I believe it is healthy to discuss such things and even healthier to disagree with another forums members opinion – honestly, do we not discuss this in our daily lives at work or at home? Are we not angry and scared like the coalition soldiers and Iraqi’s as well?

 

War is such a horrible thing for people to experience whether there or here, it seems that this affects all people throughout the world and yet we as individuals cannot do anything about it.

 

The news of late is really tragic – It looks a little more professional to me than it did on Friday yet I still argue that the opening days of war are rather distorted when it comes to governments, truths, and the news media.

 

Again, I am sorry if my personal views have caused bad feelings and out of respect for other forum members I will also bow out from this very touchy topic.

 

Regards, Jack

[Mark Lovelace]

CAMmando,

 

I agree with everything you just said. I also agree that, overall, the US does a remarkable job of showing restraint, given the potential of its power. I agree that we are all fortunate to live here, and that of the governments that are out there, ours would appear to be the best.

 

However, our nation is so powerful, and the potential for abuse of that power so immense, that it would be dangerous to believe that we need never question our leaders. Similarly, it would be myopic to not see why other nations might be concerned about that power.

 

I'm not saying the US is right or wrong. I'm simply trying to point out that war is not just a football game, where we cheer our team only because it's our team. We owe it to those whose lives are on the line to treat it as the serious and complex matter that it is.

 

I'll go with the flow here, and bow out.

[CAM-mando]

I have found this thread both disturbing and enlightening and am truly grateful that we can all express these opinions without fear of reprisals.

 

I too respectfully bow out.

[Chris Rizzo]

Well, I guess we've come to a concensus of a sort...this subject has been run out, on this forum at least. I too hope that no one has taken personal offense to this sometimes heated debate...for the process of "debating" is an integral part of what it means to be a proud American, and feathers will get ruffled. We may not agree with each other's opinon's, but I cherish the abilty for us to share them.

For now I feel the important point we agree upon is this war comes to a quick end, with minimal loss of life....

 

over-and-out, CMR

[kathy]

I too will bow out and say goodnight.

 

Everyone - stay safe and let's all pray that everyone over there in Iraq will come home safely.

 

Irreguatdless of different opinions, I am proud and supportive of our great Umited States. I thank all the brave men and woman who have goven their lives defending her.

 

Kathy

[Jody]

Scott Bond,

 

Thank your nephew Jason for me. I don't know him but I sure as hell respect him for laying his life on the line for millions of people that he does not know.

 

He is a true American, Eagle!!

 

Thank you

to all the militery (present, past and future)

 

 

Jody Gourley

[Nominal]

Aren't ya gonna thank George dubya? After all this was his idea.

[Scott Bond]

Thanks Kathy,James--All who support our troops---

Jahgourley--I will , Nominal --I do

 

There is an action photo of marines in Bagdad this morning on the MSNBC sight.

Jason Bond is on

THE TASK FORCE TARAWA they are fighting our countries battle---------

((just like the marine song))

I don't know how to post a picture here.

...But this is the caption...

U.S. Marines from Task Force Tarawa wait before moving in as a SMAW rounds hits the Iraqi 23 Infantry brigade building Monday in the southern Iraqi city of Nasiriyah. The Marines have had running gun battles over the past two days with Iraqi forces in and around the city.

 

CMR if you need to say anything,, you are welcome to say it person tommorow after the Westec lunch.

But please do not respond to my post.

Yet another quality response....

[Webby]

While the occasional O/T thread can be enjoyable, I think the emotional content in these political threads is far too high, particularly during - and perhaps as a result of - this time of war.

 

It's not in-line with our mission, and it stands to take away from what we'd all like to preserve as an excellent Mastercam resource.

 

[ 03-24-2003, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Webmaster ]