O/T iso audits

[mayday]

what a dog and pony show

 

who'da thought someone would invent such a snow job. At least thats my opinon.

 

(say what you do and do what you say)

 

at least while the auditor is here

[Surface]

Mayday, I wouldn't allow my dog to choose a wine to go with dinner, yet industrial counries have allowed the Swiss and the French to choose manufacturing standards. Who knows where this madness will take us, but it is becoming more of a requirement to have ISO certification to deal with many companies. Untill some of the big-boys step up and say "this is bull" I guess you will need to have your Stanley tape-measure calabrated.

[mayday]

sadly your right.

my calibrator needs calibrating

 

by the way, how can you program that part correctly when your screen is out of scale?

 

wont be long our cpu's will have to be calabrated every year

 

I get a kick out of it when they want to cal my micormeters. HANDS OFF

[fboike]

You might find if you make it a dog and pony show. then your not doing it correctly, youll see no benefit, then thers nosense in the audit or the registration,

If you use it correctly, there are many benefits you probably would like, increased workflow, reduced setup time, lower scrap rate.

to name a few.

[Rekd™]

In short, the ISO standards are just that, a set of standards that they hope everything under the sun can be catagorized with. Well guess what, they can't. They never will.

 

So now it's turned into a free-for-all that the money-makers are turning a nice profit on because of the constant changes and updates they've made to it every year. It's nothing less than job security now, IMNSHO.

 

I must admit, I've made a few dollars from it.

 

'Rekd

[lou]

Talk about a dog and pony show. It took my company about 3 years to get ISO approved. We even contracted in an ISO consutant. It was pertty bad that we had to see him at our christmas parties year after year. By the time it was all said and done. The ISO consultant "bought" the Metals part of the company and ventured out on his own with that part of the business. go figure

[MATT Q]

Yep the company I currently work for is ISO compliant and every couple of months we have the auditors come through and rake us but this time we had no non conformances:) I do need to get my tape measurer calibrated haha. So I just throw it in a drawer and lock it:)

[mayday]

wow,

did I hit a sore spot here

 

somehow I knew I would. cause they iritate the S*!t outa me with there waste of money.

all of a sudden I get procsess sheets on how to make a part from office personel. good idea!

but hey! it creats jobs. meaningless ones. I guess there can only be so many burger joints.

 

not trying to demean anyone involved with iso here. just trying to be work wise

[ssibiski]

We are currently in the process of going ISO here. The reason we are going ISO is because one of our customers require it. There are both good and bad things about it. But for the most part all it really boils down to is "Identification and Tracibility". The good thing about being ISO certified is you control how big of a mess it becomes. The first company I worked for got ISO certified in 3 months. And half of the shop hardly even knew the difference. One nice thing about having it is that more companys are looking for it. But it doesn't really improve anything production wise.

 

Steve S

[Müřlıń®]

ISO.......more people with their hand out.....

 

"Hey, you, get off my cloud".........

 

For some reason, an old movie comes to mind.

The one where the "bad guys" go around demanding protection money so their businesses will keep operating smoothly.......

 

Heh

 

Sorry....j/k..... I know it its own twisted way, ISO is good for the large Cooporations and the Global Manufacturing Community.....somehow.....

 

 

Murlin

[A-ron1286490684]

quote:

---

I get a kick out of it when they want to cal my micormeters. HANDS OFF

---

+1

 

Reminds me of the time I got my carbide tipped calipers back CHIPPED!!!

[Müřlıń®]

quote:

---

An alcoholic is anyone you don't like who drinks more than you do

---

LOL.....

 

 

Murlin

[MetalMarvels]

Our local plant is an ISO9001 facility and the paperwork is absolutely incredible. Bear in mind that during the daytime, I am an engineer and make my living by writing, but this sh*t is absolutely unbelievable.... There is a process and procedure for every stinking little job. When I have a look around it amazes me that someone hasn't written a process on taking a dump (for crying out loud - don't anyone suggest it!!!). It literally takes 4 days of paperwork to do 1 days work in the machine shop - there is enough paper for a full-time clerk. There are only TWO machinists! In addition, we have had to dump all of our "remnant material" because of traceability requirements - couldn't even keep it for fixtures and stuff.

 

By the way - your tape measures must be certified, not calibrated. Fixed, unchangeable measuring devices must be certified. I only say this because of the severe lecture given to me by the ISO auditors...... I got a CAR out of it. For those who aren't ISO - that is a Corrective Action Request - not a vehicle. PAIN IN THE FUNDAMENT! Not to mention that our customer is pissed because we "charge" them for it.

[Laz]

My company is certified; I do a lot of the paperwork by the way; but we do a lot of jobs constantly and a lot of them are repeat jobs- it really does save an enormous amount of time for me to look up a file and photocopy that to give to the shop- not to mention how many new jobs are delayed by poor cad ( not to any scale, open geometry etc. )- I am glad after fixing someones mess that I won't have to re-live the experience.

It really depends on what type of manufacturing your company does.

[Brendan P]

My company is ISO 9001 and Aircraft certified for many years.

As stated earlier,it is just 1 big paper trail.

Hell I wouldn't mind getting paid for the year that we spend for paper!

At this point,I can't really tell if it makes a difference in "more likely to get work" because we are constantly being sold out to china's prices.

I can't even believe that they (China) are compliant with ISO,because we spend a damn fortune staying on top of it.

I do believe it does make a difference,however,they are going overboard on some of the issues.(GE specs are bad enough)

We follow a job process sheet,and work to internal sketches.

The worst thing that I see in our shop (remember now, we are ISO approved) is that the knuckle-heads don't even read their process sheet,never mind look at the sketch for the part they are machining!

This is a real problem when you are running "high volume" repeat parts.

[CAM-mando]

Very Interesting topic and perspectives.

 

For Many ISO or similar compliance is simply a fact of life.

 

I was involved in re-writing significant portions of ISO-9002 compliant Quality systems for 2 companies that I worked for, and their implementation We are now re-writing / implementing to the latest set of 9100 series standards. Interestingly, making parts is a little thing they now call "Product Realization" WTF ???? .

 

Anyway ...

 

1. The principles of ISO Quality Standards are good ones.

 

2. Their application is terribly mis-understood by QA folks, Managers, Auditors, Engineers And Shop Personell.

 

3. Auditing has become a business and thus will now continually seek to justify itself.

 

I was told a long time ago that "Poor Systems breed More Systems".

 

Although some implementations will require additional paperwork, being overwhelmed with paperwork that provides little value is a sure sign of a POOR IMPLEMENTATION.

 

A few examples ...

 

Unfortunately many people dont want to take the time to really learn what its all about so they hire a consultant or buy cookie cutter manuals and procedures that procede to change their existing systems and procedures to fit some QA manual that was written for another company or worse for no real company. Then when this crap hits the floor, and the Tool Makers are told "YOU CANT USE RED xxxxM ANY MORE" they say "That sucks ... why ?" Then they get a cop out answer by a terribly missinformed (or lazy) ISO implementation team member "Cause ISO doesnt allow that" of course "F--- this ISO SH--." is the response from the Tool Maker. (Yes this really happened at my shop).

 

Now this person could have said "We need a way to identify scrap parts so that they wont be accedintally mixed with production parts Lets talk to the Tool Makers and Machinists and come up with the best way". But instead they took a prewritten procedure (probably written for IBM) that said scrap must be identified by painting it red and completing 7 forms with 9 signoffs and concluded that any other process which took metal parts and made them red was dangerous because it conflicted with the scrap identification requirement. I finally won this argument by pointing out that we would now have to refuse customer orders that specifieded red paint. The procedure has now been changed and the tool makers can still use their red xxxxm and we are still in compliance.

 

Every Nonconformance does NOT REQUIRE CORRECTIVE ACTION. A method for determining how and when C/A is required must however exist. Soo a screwmachine shop that produces parts that are cheaper to throw away than screw around with can state in their procedures that setup parts are handled in a certain way and not treated as production scrap. Hows this ... One time occurances can be dispositioned by the QA Manager without conviening an MRB.

 

There is NO REQUIREMENT For separate Non Conformance Reports, Corrective Action Forms, or Scrap Tags. For example If it makes sense you can have a single scrap tag that gets attached to the part. When the part gets to the Inspector he can Sign off the tag and determine if C/A and followup is required. The required record can be as simple as a photo copy of the tag with the appropriate signoffs. If you use duplicate (carbon copy) tags The system for C/A closeout can be as simple as a reject tag that gets hung on a nail labled OPEN C/A's Wanna know if there are any open C/A's look on the wall. Some ISO Gurus will tell you the nail must come down and be replaced by 4 different forms 2 log books and a new database program ... (and maybe CAR Team Meeting).

 

If highly skilled workers (lets say tool makers) have been making good parts for years, ISO does not require that they be given detailed routings with 50 operations and 25 operation sketches to make a Die. IT ONLY Requires that the "Quality Planning" ensure it is documented to the level neccesary given the skill of the worker performing the work. So ... if the Tool room employees are defined and their skill and experience documented and categorized, it is acceoptable that a routing have minimal instruction because of the skill level of the individual doing the work.

 

A tool room routing could be as simple as :

 

100 INSPECTION Inspect and Identify Materials Per Engineering Drawing Requirements.

 

110 TOOLROOM Fabricate all components required per Engineering Drawing. Component Inspection Required Prior to Assembly

 

120 INSPECTION Inspect Components.

 

130 TOOLROOM Fit and Final Assemble.

 

140 INSPECTION Final Inspect Per Engineering Drawing.

 

Now if this same assembly is being made by 25 different people in 12 different workcenters some of which are button pushers, thats anotehr matter.

 

My point is simply that many companies are meeting the letter of the procedurural law but missing the intent of the Standard. Thats not because of the standard. That is bucause of the procedures.

 

If the people implementing the Quality system trully understand the Standard and meet its intentions, they will be able to "back down" an Auditor by explaining exactly how the system meets the requirements and showing how it works. The best way is to grab a guy off the floor (so much for praying the auditor wont talk to the shop guys) And letting him explain what he does with scrap parts. If the system in place is simple and sensible it will be in use and easy for the guy to explain. The reasobnably competent auditor will not be able to deny the effectiveness of the system. He may even come away impressed that the simple system is a sign of a sound Quality System. The alternative ... Baffle them with BS and Log Books And Incomplete Paperwork accompanied by your best soft shoe routine.

 

Lastly ...

 

Corrective / Preventitive Action

Internal Audits

And Management Review

 

These are the vital signs of a functioning system. If these systems / processes are implemented in a sensible streamlined userfriendly system, they can be performed consistantly. A good auditor will look here first. Depending on what he finds will determine how the rest of the audit goes.

 

Well I just re-read the post and well ... I apologize for the length. It is trully meant in the spirit of people helping people.

[Brendan P]

WOW....

+1000 Cammando

You make some very excellent points.

[Chris Rizzo]

Very enlightening Cammando... thanks. I enjoy learning all the ancillary stuff within our forum. Now if I only could find an ISO certified plumber for my house!...

[skeetboy25]

quote:

---

There are only TWO machinists

---

need a third for, you know, paperwork?

 

quote:

---

we have had to dump all of our "remnant material" because of traceability requirements - couldn't even keep it for fixtures and stuff.

---

pikes peak community college would be happy to releave you of any "remnant material".

[CAM-mando]

quote:

---

we have had to dump all of our "remnant material" because of traceability requirements - couldn't even keep it for fixtures and stuff.

---

Was that a choice or a requirement imposed by someone ?

 

We restock remenants of any apreciable size, but we do maintain a small inventory of uncertified material used for fixtures and such. The material is stored in a totally separate area than tracable material. If proper tracability controls are in place for product, I am aware of no requirement that prevents you from having uncertified material on hand for tooling purposes.

 

We make flight safetey aircraft components among other things. And this has not been a problem.

 

Our aircraft assemblies require certified hardware (screws nuts etc.) That doesnt mean we cant have hardware store grade fasteners anywhere in the shop. It means that those materials must be segragated and controlled in some fasion.

[chris m]

quote:

---

we do maintain a small inventory of uncertified material used for fixtures and such

---

+1, I don't think that there is any problem with this; we have a 'non-inventory' stock rack with bar ends, saw drops, etc on it.

 

Jeez, Dave, you are an ISO stud boy; very impressive

 

I must say that I've worked for 3 ISO shops and for the most part the forms/procedures/systems and related BS in all of them are a joke. I've seen production enterprises that are COMPLETELY out of control pass audits with flying colors too many times to believe in the validity of the Organization.

 

ISO was an unemployment solution for out-of-work paperpushers

 

C

 

[ 08-06-2003, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: chris m ]

[Nominal]

I can design a lead life-jacket and be 100% ISO compliant. Being ISO certified does not imply that you are making quality products, only that your paperwork is in order.

[I.C.O.N.]

Yup, ISO does not care if you are a producer of poo. All they care is that the poo is consistant and oh ya, a document to say how you make the poo consistant.

[Müřlıń®]

This is a perfect example.....

 

 

quote:

---

I can design a lead life-jacket and be 100% ISO compliant

---

The company I used to do work for was ISO compliant. There worker parking lot had 10 cars in it. The office parking lot had to be expanded and there were about 30 cars in it.

 

As far as I could tell, ISO did not improve their quality of work, make them any more money, or get them any more work.

 

Forgings still dried up because of the work going to China, India, Mexico, ect...

 

They could no longer afford to have work sent out and were forced to sink all their dies "in house".

 

So, if you think about it, ISO cost me my job and almost put me out of business.

 

That's why I'm a little down on those guys.....

 

 

Murlin teh in a nutshell

[fboike]

CAMmando, hit every nail on its documented head.

you have profound knowledge. 1000 kudos

 

If youve had input in the system, working in it

is not the problem. working outside it is.