could really use some professional guidance on acquisition of big 5 axis

[bobby jones]

I know a lot of guys here are in the programming side of parts. I am trying to look more into the price, price/hr, etc. Hoping to stumble into an owner or two to give me some honest advice here.

 

I will try to be brief. I recently acquired a used but BIG 5 axis horizontal. 3 Semi loads of machine! I bought the machine ONLY because I am already in the business and knew what I was looking at, and the price was STUPID cheap!!! However, I really do not have a shop big enough for the machine! I am not really setup for this level of capacity.

 

I can actually sell the machine and make about a years worth of earnings in one shot! However, I am having a really tough time letting go of it! The machine is lower RPM so makes sense as a steel or Ti machine. It is SOLID built, low hours, ready to work. It is NOT an old 80s machine that is sloppy and too out dated. I am really trying to debate whether I should go through the growing and financial pains of trying to get this machine installed and running? Is it too hard to get any customer to look at you seriously when looking for big 5 axis work and no history with them?

 

Can a 5 axis run at a price point that makes it worth the hassle? Would anyone care to help a guy out here in deciding whether I should cut the cord and thank God for a great purchase, or fight for the next year in hopes of greener patures knowing that even in our big machining town, only a few shops even have this capability? I don;t exactly have work running out my ears right now anyway. I am a machine tech and ability to reduce any and all setup costs but at a point, it will take money to get this happening.

 

 

thoughts?

[GoetzInd]

What make and model/year? Remember there is a lot more to making big parts than just having a big machine. You need the material handling and inspection capacity to match.

 

Mike

[bobby jones]

I really don't want to share the machine specs on a forum just due to any backlash if we sell it I guess. It will machine about a 6ft cube. It is NOT a 4 axis with a trunnion. The machine does have Renishaw probing on it and scales so I am told we "might" be able to get some buyers to buy off on that.

 

However, going through the growth process, we can outsource CMM, or have a ferril (sp) arm available to us free. I DO understand the concerns and standards of inspection. Temp, equipment, calibration, etc. I might have to push away some work with +/- .001 until I feel good with it.

[Sticky]

If you can actually make a years worth of earnings by flipping it, you are probably nuts not too.

 

Now if its a really nice machine and well suited for the work you do then maybe its worth keeping around. But otherwise I'm thinking its going to take 5 or more years for you to earn the same amount you could make flipping it, and you will definitely be in for a lot more stress.

 

 

I've seen a few guys buy bigger 5 axis hmc's for well under 100k, thinking they will flip them for 4x more, only to sit on them for several years.

 

 

Is this a boring mill?

[Greg Williams]

Personally I would punt it then look for a machine suitable to the work that you want to be involved in and a are setup to do. Maybe this machine is the area that you want to play?

Large parts are good but they require large cranes, large rigging, large tools and a lot of floor space. If you decide to keep it then you will need to look at the costs for foundations, cranes, tooling software and verification as mistakes with large pieces of material can be problematic to the bottom line

[crazy^millman]

Sorry, but the fact you are asking a group of total strangers this very question tells you everything to need to know.

 

Sorry, but you are not ready and sound like you can flip it and make some much needed money. Greg has touched on some of the basics, but if you have never done 5 axis work you have the whole learning curve. Fixturing, handling and it is a Faro Arm and would need something like Verisurf to use it. Verification is very important and then a post for it. Put $25k to $40K in that area alone for 5 axis. Do you have that on your sim? That is another cost. Then a foundation it is that big will not be cheap. What size parts would think you could get? Just seen a 16 dash number 8 a month come across my path that was a 10 year contract. I was looking at $10 Million for the 2 Makino Mag 3, Pallet System, Holders and everything for that project. Was $250K a month worth of work, but everyone was running for the hills while I was trying to get the pieces in place to do it.

[gcode]

Having just spent the last year bringing a large 5x trunion online, I think you should flip it.

You're going to need a building, foundations and crane just to get started... and that's the easy stuff.

Then you're looking at a post, fixtures tool holders, verification software and an endless list of stuff that will nickel and dime you

to death.

To top it off, you don't have any work lined up for it.

IMO, you will be bled white, long before you invoice your first part.

You need deep pockets and a long term outlook to bring a machine like this online.

[Goldorak]

we are in the process to buy a bif 5 axis VTL (Ø60in min)

 

make your homework , it could cost over 150k just to get the machine on the floor and functional, this involve software, tooling, foundation, we already got the 10T crane to handles the parts.... so if you don,t already got one, xxxx some major $$$$ in the balance

 

on top of that, parts that bin can cost thousands of dollars just in material for each part, you need the cash flow to handle that

 

i know at least 6 or 7 shops around here that decide to go big then go to bankruptcy in less than a year

[Guest]

Plus, you're going to need a COUPLE of REALLY SKILLED MACHINISTS on top of all the other things. I'm with several others on here. Flip that bad boy. I've got someone that deals with used equipment if you want to go that route.

[crazy^millman]

I've got someone that deals with used equipment if you want to go that route.

 

I use to have someone till he tried throwing me under the bus when he made a mistake on his last sale.

[Sticky]

I'd say Goldorak is pretty close on his $150k cost to get it up and running, if anything I'd say its a bit light, clearing 200k won't be hard to do.

 

Of course we are only assuming right now, we don't know what machine you actually have, how good it actually is etc.

 

James makes a good point about personel, you are going to want a couple realyl good guys to get this thing implemented, we are talking 80k/year and up type guys.

[Guest]

... you are going to want a couple realyl good guys to get this thing implemented, we are talking 80k/year and up type guys.

Yeah, $80k to get 'em to just consider the position. Those guys don't come cheap, they don't put up with :bs: because they don't have to. They've paid their dues, they know what they are doing, and they like to be left alone. They don't want some goober breathing down their neck reminding them that the part they are working on costs more than the house they are living in.

[Mick]

James said goober....

 

Yeah, $80k to get 'em to just consider the position. Those guys don't come cheap, they don't put up with :bs: because they don't have to. They've paid their dues, they know what they are doing, and they like to be left alone. They don't want some goober breathing down their neck reminding them that the part they are working on costs more than the house they are living in.

[Joe788]

I'm with the "flip it" crowd, for all the same reasons listed above.

 

That said - it also all depends on your money situation. You don't HAVE to spend a zillion dollars getting it set up perfectly right away, and you don't HAVE to rush out and buy a big CMM to inspect parts you don't even have yet. If you're comfortable to the point where selling or keeping this machine isn't necessarily going to change your lifestyle - it could be worth keeping and putting together, just for fun and a learning experience. It could very well bring in work to other parts of your shop completely unrelated, simply because people are impressed that you have this giant, expensive machine. Not to mention, you'll have much better luck selling it if it's all together and running.

 

Whatever you choose to do - definitely go into it with zero expectation of finding large 5 axis work for it.

 

 

Edit: *If the machine is a Cincinatti - sell it to any sucker who'll buy it, and forget everything else I said. LOL

[GoetzInd]

Edit: *If the machine is a Cincinatti - sell it to any sucker who'll buy it, and forget everything else I said. LOL

 

Haha that's kind of what I was thinking.

 

Mike

[crazy^millman]

Edit: *If the machine is a Cincinatti - sell it to any sucker who'll buy it, and forget everything else I said. LOL

 

Run like there is no tomorrow and the IRS, DEA, CIA, FBI and ever other agency known to man is after you. Great iron, but controls are some of the worse I have ever had the displeasure of working with.

[bobby jones]

Really appreciate all the replies guys! I know I have the skills and people to do the foundation, assy, programming, etc for a LOT less BUT that is probably beside the point. I think I will see what I can do to move it. Hopefully locally. I honestly would not mind being in the loop with the whole process. I know a lot of guys spend big dollars to get all this stuff done when my partner is a PE and we were number crunchers before machinists.

 

I tend to agree with the general position to sell. Even though I have verification software, our CAM is 5 axis and do some on a small vertical, I just have TOO many coals in the fire already and this sounds like a 2yr venture that I don't have time for. We are SMALL so just having man power around is a pain. Hard enough trying to rebuild a spindle by yourself!

 

FYI, this is a true pallet HMC with pallet changer setup for a pool but never was used at that capacity.

[Newbeeee™]

^^^C'mon - share the photos

[gcode]

I'm guessing this is a Mitsui Seiki MU100 5X..

A very nice machine

[crazy^millman]

I'm guessing this is a Mitsui Seiki MU100 5X..

A very nice machine

 

Well now that is a different discussion all together. They are great machines and if it has low hours that would be worth holding on to. It was run like a salted dog then dump it.

[MIL-TFP-41]

This machine wouldn't be in Utah, would it?

[gcode]

maybe it's an Okuma MU 10000 like the one my employer purchased.

that is a sweet machine