Entry level 5 axis

[cincy k]

What options are out there for entry level 5 axis machines?

Some search criteria

- 17 inch swing diameter

- 40 tool min

- tool loading outside the machining area

- rotary axis accuracy- better than +/- 10 arc seconds- maybe scales

- thermal compensation

- Preferable full 5 but not a must

- Multi block skip

- Has table to tell machine that tool number 123 is in pot number 30. This way I can preset tools from my master tool library and load them directly into the machine without rearranging tool numbers. I believe the makino pro 5 handles tools like this.

 

 

Some initial thoughts

- Matsuura mx-520

- Hmc w/ 5th on pallet

 

[Bob W.]

What is the budget?

[cincy k]

300k. That's machine only. No verification software, holders or workholding.

[Guest]

You'd be hard pressed to beat the Matsuura. It comes in under your budget, comes with Post Processing and Simulation Software.

[cincy k]

You'd be hard pressed to beat the Matsuura. It comes in under your budget, comes with Post Processing and Simulation Software.

 

The more I look it seems this machine truly has a niche in the market right now. My dealer is new to Matsuura as of last year and I'm not confident in their ability to support me as of yet.

 

Can I set the machine up to handle tools as listed above?

 

Can I turn off and on different block skips in the control?

[Guest]

 

 

The more I look it seems this machine truly has a niche in the market right now. My dealer is new to Matsuura as of last year and I'm not confident in their ability to support me as of yet.

 

Can I set the machine up to handle tools as listed above?

 

Can I turn off and on different block skips in the control?

Don't let the new dealer turn you off of the machine. I've done support for other dealers while they get up to speed. I've been supporting Matsuura 5-Axis machines on the west coast for the past 6+ years and supporting CAMplete for the last 6 years. Plus you have Matsuura USA in Minnesota (same time zone as you right?)

 

Yes, it can handle tools the way you asked.

 

There are 8 block skips that toggle on and off by touch screen.

[Mick]

Matsuura = Nice

CAMplete = Nice

 

You wont regret purchasing a Matsuura

[cincy k]

Don't let the new dealer turn you off of the machine. I've done support for other dealers while they get up to speed. I've been supporting Matsuura 5-Axis machines on the west coast for the past 6+ years and supporting CAMplete for the last 6 years. Plus you have Matsuura USA in Minnesota (same time zone as you right?)

 

Yes, it can handle tools the way you asked.

 

There are 8 block skips that toggle on and off by touch screen.

 

Interesting. Having support for stepping into the 5 axis arena is a large part of the purchase in my book. Some of my success or lack there of hinges on this. I haven't had a chance to visit St. Paul but would like to if I go down the road with Matsuura. They're an hour behind but close enough. Thanks for answering those couple questons.

 

How well if at all does Camplete interface with Mastercam? Can you transfer tooling and workholding setup info pretty seamlessly? A lot of what we do is very low volume (1 to 10 parts) so spending as little time as possible to get a quality verification would be nice.

[Zoober]

…

How well if at all does Camplete interface with Mastercam? Can you transfer tooling and workholding setup info pretty seamlessly? A lot of what we do is very low volume (1 to 10 parts) so spending as little time as possible to get a quality verification would be nice.

I'm curious also. Anthing new?

[mikenaturalice]

Interesting. Having support for stepping into the 5 axis arena is a large part of the purchase in my book. Some of my success or lack there of hinges on this. I haven't had a chance to visit St. Paul but would like to if I go down the road with Matsuura. They're an hour behind but close enough. Thanks for answering those couple questons.

 

How well if at all does Camplete interface with Mastercam? Can you transfer tooling and workholding setup info pretty seamlessly? A lot of what we do is very low volume (1 to 10 parts) so spending as little time as possible to get a quality verification would be nice.

I have used Camplete with Mastercam. I think it works ok, but to be honest I never had any training other than the initial setup to get going, about 6 hours or so and the guy didn't have alot of answers to our questions. The thing we couldn't get it do propery was import our toolholders. I thought the tool building feature was overly complicated, not nearly as nice as making toolholders in Mastercam (even though you can't completely define a holder i.e. no radii...). I think if you had training from a qualified user that was proficient with both it would be great.

[Sticky]

As far as I know the Matsuura mx-520 has that part of the market cornered.

 

I'd say go to St.Paul and do some test cuts. They are great machines. You will love the spindle!

[cincy k]

Any thoughts out there on the Mikron HEM 500u?

[Chipmakr]

We have a HEM500u here. We have had it since October of last year as a loaner because there was a delay with our machine. I believe it will come in well below your budget limit. Our loaner has a 30 pocket tool changer & thru spindle coolant & renishaw probe. All of our Mikron's have polymer concrete machine bases, this machine has a 2 piece cast iron base. When the tech set it up everything calibrated within .005mm. We have cut CRS, Monel K500, 17-4ss, Aluminium, Plexiglass, tool steel, etc... on it with no trouble. This machine has the 12k spindle with ISO40 toolholders. The control is great. I prefer the blum laser on our other machines to the renishaw touch probe style tool touch off. We have had some coolant leaks around the chip conveyor. Accel & Decell are nice and surface finishes are good. All and all for the price point this machine preforms very well. It also has a nice size table 500mm. We post thru Camplete for it. This machine does not allow loading outside the machining area & is strictly 3+2. I wouldn't want it to be my only 5x machine, but it has been a nice complement to create more capacity on our nicer machines.

 

If you could find a machine in your budget with a pallet changer I would go that route if possible. The pallet changer adds so much flexibility in job shop work or production work that I would strongly recommend it.

[Guest]

Interesting. Having support for stepping into the 5 axis arena is a large part of the purchase in my book. Some of my success or lack there of hinges on this. I haven't had a chance to visit St. Paul but would like to if I go down the road with Matsuura. They're an hour behind but close enough. Thanks for answering those couple questions.

You're welcome. Yes support is a large part of 5-Axis success.

 

How well if at all does Camplete interface with Mastercam? Can you transfer tooling and workholding setup info pretty seamlessly?

They've added the ability to import the Mastercam Holders' .holder file s you don't have to build separate holders in MC and CAMplete anymore, and a bunch more.

 

 

 

A lot of what we do is very low volume (1 to 10 parts) so spending as little time as possible to get a quality verification would be nice.

The verification is still REALLY system intensive because it does the collision check with it.

[Guest]

 

I'm curious also. Anthing new?

You up for a visitor Thursday? I'll be in the area.

[Guest]

 

I have used Camplete with Mastercam. I think it works ok, but to be honest I never had any training other than the initial setup to get going, about 6 hours or so and the guy didn't have alot of answers to our questions. The thing we couldn't get it do propery was import our toolholders. I thought the tool building feature was overly complicated, not nearly as nice as making toolholders in Mastercam (even though you can't completely define a holder i.e. no radii...). I think if you had training from a qualified user that was proficient with both it would be great.

PM me and we could set up a WebEx session. I'm pretty sure I could get you going with the holders in fairly short order. What build are you on?

[cincy k]

We have a HEM500u here. We have had it since October of last year as a loaner because there was a delay with our machine. I believe it will come in well below your budget limit. Our loaner has a 30 pocket tool changer & thru spindle coolant & renishaw probe. All of our Mikron's have polymer concrete machine bases, this machine has a 2 piece cast iron base. When the tech set it up everything calibrated within .005mm. We have cut CRS, Monel K500, 17-4ss, Aluminium, Plexiglass, tool steel, etc... on it with no trouble. This machine has the 12k spindle with ISO40 toolholders. The control is great. I prefer the blum laser on our other machines to the renishaw touch probe style tool touch off. We have had some coolant leaks around the chip conveyor. Accel & Decell are nice and surface finishes are good. All and all for the price point this machine preforms very well. It also has a nice size table 500mm. We post thru Camplete for it. This machine does not allow loading outside the machining area & is strictly 3+2. I wouldn't want it to be my only 5x machine, but it has been a nice complement to create more capacity on our nicer machines.

 

If you could find a machine in your budget with a pallet changer I would go that route if possible. The pallet changer adds so much flexibility in job shop work or production work that I would strongly recommend it.

 

Mikron offers a 60 tool version of the machine along with a 7 pallet changer. One down side is the pallets reduce your work envelope quite a bit because of their height. Another is that 60 tools for having 7 pallets in our particular job shop environment isn't nearly enough. Smaller tool magazines seem to be hard to come by in this price range.

 

I will also be doing a lot of work with the trunnion kicked over at 90 degrees and it seems the spindle nose is pretty stubbed up and may cause clearance issues. The Matsuura seems a lot more friendly at A -90 though still a little limited in Y axis travel.

 

Have you done any tracking of or had any issues with thermal growth?

[cincy k]

You're welcome. Yes support is a large part of 5-Axis success.

 

 

They've added the ability to import the Mastercam Holders' .holder file s you don't have to build separate holders in MC and CAMplete anymore, and a bunch more.

 

 

 

 

The verification is still REALLY system intensive because it does the collision check with it.

 

What do you mean by system intensive exactly?

[Bob W.]

What do you mean by system intensive exactly?

 

I'm guessing he meant it really taxes your computer hardware during simulations due to the number of calculations for collision detection, etc... You need a capable computer.

[Bob W.]

I have a Makino A51nx with a Koma rotary and I am very happy with it. I love the flexibility of being able to remove the rotary and run balls out production (horizontal machine) and have the rotary back in there in a few minutes to bang out a 5-axis prototype. I'm not sure what the C-axis accuracy is but the direct drive B-axis is well within your requirements. It is very flexible and very capable in many different areas. It would probably be a little over your budget though but worth a look.

[cincy k]

I have a Makino A51nx with a Koma rotary and I am very happy with it. I love the flexibility of being able to remove the rotary and run balls out production (horizontal machine) and have the rotary back in there in a few minutes to bang out a 5-axis prototype. I'm not sure what the C-axis accuracy is but the direct drive B-axis is well within your requirements. It is very flexible and very capable in many different areas. It would probably be a little over your budget though but worth a look.

 

I've read quite a bit about your setup and how you run your shop- impressive to say the least.

 

I visited Makino here in Mason, Ohio (just up the street) a few weeks ago. I loved the machines and loved the experience I had talking with them about my projects. I saw a stripped down a61nx that a crane had fallen on and it was IMPRESSIVE. There's no doubt that the machines are capable. I am a small fry to them (3 man shop) and worry about service if something were to happen to the machine. Though i guess you could say the same with any builder. I've heard of some smaller shops having trouble getting service, likely through their distributor though.

 

In a sense i feel it may be a waste getting a horizontal with so much capacity with just 60 tools. For the high mix and low volume of parts we run i don't think i could fully utilize the machine's capabilities with such a limited number of tools. Going to a larger tool magazine and a fifth axis puts me well over my budget. Some days I feel like saying f--- it and diving head first into what I know is the right machine for my future. (HMC with a roller bearing 5th on one table and 240 tools) I'm relatively new in business, 2.5 years, and am on the fence about sticking my neck out any further. As many have said in other post it's the risk factor for business owners.

[Bob W.]

I hear you. The diverse mix of my workload is why I decided on a horizontal machine. I had to buy a machine that could wear many hats and that is where a horizontal machine really shines. Due to budget constraints I had to stick with just 60 tools, had to draw the line somewhere. I figured a horizontal with 60 tools was much better than a vertical no matter how well set up it was. I really wish I had more tools but I'm not kicking myself about it, I am very happy with how things are working out and how I am able to utilize this machine. What really amazes me is how much of a difference a pallet changing machine makes in the volume of parts one can run in a day. With the VMC I had no interest in quoting $5 parts but with a horizontal I can run $5 parts of reasonable complexity and absolutely kill it. Sounds like business is going really well for you. Great to see!

 

Keep us posted on what direction you decide to go.

[Zoober]

 

You up for a visitor Thursday? I'll be in the area.

I'll be out from 10:30 to about noon. Any other time is good. If camplete brings in holders and stuff, we could save on vericut.

See ya Thurs

[cincy k]

I hear you. The diverse mix of my workload is why I decided on a horizontal machine. I had to buy a machine that could wear many hats and that is where a horizontal machine really shines. Due to budget constraints I had to stick with just 60 tools, had to draw the line somewhere. I figured a horizontal with 60 tools was much better than a vertical no matter how well set up it was. I really wish I had more tools but I'm not kicking myself about it, I am very happy with how things are working out and how I am able to utilize this machine. What really amazes me is how much of a difference a pallet changing machine makes in the volume of parts one can run in a day. With the VMC I had no interest in quoting $5 parts but with a horizontal I can run $5 parts of reasonable complexity and absolutely kill it. Sounds like business is going really well for you. Great to see!

 

Keep us posted on what direction you decide to go.

 

How easy of an integration has Vericut been for you? Were the machine models supplied by Makino? What kind of time do you spend verifying a moderately complex part? Say something done in two setups on the HMC tombstone with all six sides machined. One face and two sides on Op. 10 and the other face and other two sides on Op, a shoe box with milling on all sides.

[Guest]

Cool. See you then. Not positive what time yet. I'll keep you posted.