Custom Setup Sheets vs. Mastercam ones

[So not a Guru]

4 hours ago, neurosis said:

How many CAM systems have a 1 click easy setup sheet button that doesn't require paying for or learning how to tailor it to your liking?

With the exception of the 3 fields that we want to change ( Programmer name, proving operators name & the date the program was proven) AR is 2 clicks for us; 1 click of the "Create" icon & 1 click of the green check mark.

Honestly, no single solution is going to please everyone, and sometimes we all just want to take an opportunity to vent a bit. That's part of what a good forum provides.

[AHarrison1]

44 minutes ago, So not a Guru said:

Honestly, no single solution is going to please everyone

This x 1000, would also be applicable to 99% of threads where people want something specific added or removed from the software. 

[SuperHoneyBadger]

3 hours ago, Newbeeee™ said:

Waddabout Datums?

I'll get around to throwing in a G54.1 P18 once that sheet gets released to the boys, lol.

[cruzila]

1 hour ago, SuperHoneyBadger said:

I'll get around to throwing in a G54.1 P18 once that sheet gets released to the boys, lol.

I got that one figured out...planes too just so I can check. Still never know if the coolant is on.

[neurosis]

most of our work instruction/setup sheets over the years have been pretty simple. 

Now days I'm finding that you have to write a step by step manual on how to set a job up and run the parts. 

I think that I spend more time on setup sheets attempting to write instructions and snap shots of  parts than I do anything else.

Back when I started in the trade, everything was text and you had just enough info to set the job up.  It's almost to the point now where you need a video of someone setting up and running the job. 

I guess that's what happens when you have a generation of "machinists" who watched a few titan video's and think they're ready to go pro.

[So not a Guru]

4 minutes ago, neurosis said:

I guess that's what happens when you have a generation of "machinists" who watched a few titan video's and think they're ready to go pro.

I'm not too sure that getting rid of High School Industrial Arts programs, and all of the shops that taught the skills needed in the trades, was a good idea.

I don't completely blame the latest generation for not learning what they were never taught.

[neurosis]

4 minutes ago, So not a Guru said:

I don't completely blame the latest generation for not learning what they were never taught.

 

That's probably a good point, but from my experience, the arrogance makes it difficult to be objective.  lol.

[So not a Guru]

7 minutes ago, neurosis said:

 

That's probably a good point, but from my experience, the arrogance makes it difficult to be objective.  lol.

Yes, that's a whole other kettle of fish. When I started back in the '70s & '80s, that attitude had a price that is no longer charged.

[Bill Craven]

Excel table of contents example bc2.xlsm

I have attached a spreadsheet that I use for keeping track of my projects.  One of the unique features of this spreadsheet is that it has a self healing Table of Contents.  

What I mean by that is: you can add new sheets, reorganize sheets, delete sheets and when you go to the Table of Contents page, it will rebuild the table of contents.  

I have a few bogus sheets in there as examples.  the last sheet is instructions/hints on how to use this sheet.

One of the pages that I have in there is a group of tools with some basic parameters that I will save as I am selecting tools so that when I am entering information about a tool, I don't have to go back to the tool manufacturer's page.  

I will add in blueprints and machine information.  Most of the things that I need end up in one document for that project.

Something like this could become "The Book" for a part with all of the setup information in it.

[Newbeeee™]

Take this with a pinch of salt - as my primary hands-on experience is a majority of pristmatic-type electrical enclosures, and their associated internals on 4ax VM'c and Hori.
Parts with <150ops 'gramming - and the vast majority 2x machining ops only (for the 6x faces).
Disclaimer over....

With todays pressures and skill levels etc, IMHO a (clean) tool list is best fit for the majority of applications.
Showing:-
Machine type/number
Prog Number
Part number and Issue
T#, H#, D#, Tool description, Holder type and tool stickout
Mtl size
Datum setup 
Vice end stop position and parallels if used for OP1
Fixture number
Any other comments with perhaps a photo showing setup

And if operator is in any doubt, they can watch through mcam's verify before setting, to see "what it does".
Not forgetting "If in doubt - ASK"!

All the additional info I see on some generated set sheets detailing each OP#, operation types, tool speed and feed, cut depths etc etc is all surplus noise and wouldn't get looked at.
That's all within the prog the 'grammer has set, so it should be safe and reliable (based on known info).
When I was Eng mgr at a previous place, the QM for years, had dictated that all jobs were run with a paper printout of the prog so the operator could see what the machine would be doing
A total, unnecessarily, waste of paper and someone printing it, as obviously no one ever looked at it.
Too much info....

:shrug: 

[neurosis]

3 hours ago, Newbeeee™ said:

All the additional info I see on some generated set sheets detailing each OP#, operation types, tool speed and feed, cut depths etc etc is all surplus noise and wouldn't get looked at.

 

I can tell you're old.   

Most of our setup sheets contained just that. Tools with pertinent tool info.  Part origin, Any special needed notes.  Pretty basic stuff.

Over the last 5 years I keep getting complaints that they don't know how to hold the parts. What size parallels to use.  I have to specify the exact end mill brand and part number.  Insert grades. Exact tool holder. Which vise we need to use. I can't leave a single detail out or I get blamed by the operator for their incompetence. 

When I started in the trade, I think it was around my 3rd machinist job, I went to work for a guy who had his son doing the programming. They didn't even use setup sheets. We had to look at the programs (which were horrible) and figure everything out ourselves.  Some of the programs has multiple height and diameter offsets on a single tool.  They were terrible.   If you crashed, the shop owner always said "who pushed the button". 

Man are those days gone.  lol.

[Jake L]

13 hours ago, neurosis said:

Back when I started in the trade, everything was text and you had just enough info to set the job up.  It's almost to the point now where you need a video of someone setting up and running the job. 

A couple of my more skilled coworkers say that 20-30 years ago (at the same shop we're at now) they used to get handed a sticky note with a list of tools on it. They would run whole jobs with just a sticky note. 

I can't imagine scribbling a few tools on a sticky note and not drawing up a whole packet of OP sheets.

[sharles]

Hey everyone, thanks for all the comments and thoughts and for the stuff Bill and other have uploaded here and also what he sent to me. I appreciate it! It's a lot to think about, but right now, if I'm understanding everything, it seems like AR and even X+ are more focused on Mastercam operations and tooling information, and for our operators we really want to minimize the information because, as some have pointed out, they (our operators) hardly read what we give them as it is, and so our toolpath sheets need to be that: focused on the toolpaths not Mastercam operations or anything else, but a bare-bone list of information they 'might' read.

I'll keep digesting what Bill sent me and the stuff here, but I think unfortunately, what we have is what we want unless I want to learn to program and only grab the information we want...probably not as I've never done anything remotely like that and would have no idea where to start...

Scott

17 minutes ago, Jake L said:

A couple of my more skilled coworkers say that 20-30 years ago (at the same shop we're at now) they used to get handed a sticky note with a list of tools on it. They would run whole jobs with just a sticky note. 

I can't imagine scribbling a few tools on a sticky note and not drawing up a whole packet of OP sheets.

 

21 minutes ago, neurosis said:

 

I can tell you're old.   

Most of our setup sheets contained just that. Tools with pertinent tool info.  Part origin, Any special needed notes.  Pretty basic stuff.

Over the last 5 years I keep getting complaints that they don't know how to hold the parts. What size parallels to use.  I have to specify the exact end mill brand and part number.  Insert grades. Exact tool holder. Which vise we need to use. I can't leave a single detail out or I get blamed by the operator for their incompetence. 

When I started in the trade, I think it was around my 3rd machinist job, I went to work for a guy who had his son doing the programming. They didn't even use setup sheets. We had to look at the programs (which were horrible) and figure everything out ourselves.  Some of the programs has multiple height and diameter offsets on a single tool.  They were terrible.   If you crashed, the shop owner always said "who pushed the button". 

Man are those days gone.  lol.

Yep, that's where our shop is at. When I was on the floor, we did almost everything. Now the operators do almost nothing other than setups and calling up the next program and  some of them still can't handle that....

[Jobnt]

22 minutes ago, sharles said:

When I was on the floor, we did almost everything. Now the operators do almost nothing other than setups and calling up the next program and  some of them still can't handle that....

#MeToo

It's a different beast now. Machine Tools and their capabilities are exponentially more complicated than they were when I started machining in the early 80's. 

The parts we machine are more complex too. 

The setup sheets here for production are detailed down to the table setup including the rotary, vises, every bolt, pin and clamp. We run the same parts on several different types of machines, too, so we duplicate and triple work in those areas.

The new breed simply doesn't want to take the time to learn or figure something out for themselves. And they DAMNED sure don't want to take responsibility for their screw-ups.

:edit: Sorry Sharles, no Like for you!!!

[Newbeeee™]

I guess I was lucky with my place, because I could standardise right at the start of day 1.

So 4x identical 850x VMC machines, all with 10k spindles and same pullstuds, grid plates on the table dowelled with the same XY (grid shifted), all with the same Bison 6" vices, and jaws milled with steps in for holding stock (no parallels for 90% jobs). Also rotarys were doweled and datums in the progs.

The 3x 15k drill/taps all setup the same.

And the 2x siemens lathes identical so the same spindle liners, VDI tooling, programs etc would run in either. Same chucks and collet heads so bored jaws would even run between the machines.

It's a bit of work to get to that, but it makes life easy(er).

Ultimately - should you be employing someone to sit and read through a printed our prog and figure out how to get a job going? Certainly my Customers wouldn't want to have paid for that 

[Thad]

On 6/28/2023 at 12:23 PM, So not a Guru said:

I'm getting senile. I read that as "Does this look like it."

Username checks out.  

[cruzila]

:OFFTOPIC:

When I started, guys got fired for things like attitude, not following directions, doing dumb things, hitting things with a hammer and stuff like that. Yelling was common and expectations were always very high. i started by cleaning machines. Now, a new guy just starts making parts. No need to even measure a part....??

I would say that things are different, but what is the most damning for our industry is setting expectations at a level that encourages learning and getting it right. 

[neurosis]

3 hours ago, cruzila said:

I would say that things are different, but what is the most damning for our industry is setting expectations at a level that encourages learning and getting it right. 

I started cleaning a shop.  I was taught to clean the machines to the point that you could eat off of them.

My work ethic reflected that through my career. 

I taught myself to program on my own time.  I spent my own time asking people how to get better at what I do. 

This just isn't common anymore.  Everyone feels like they're owed something

[byte]

I do a lot of custom setup sheets for customers, some of the setup sheets we make run off of gcode  or the nci or both.

 

If you guys need custom setup sheets you can reach out to us at sales or possibly through your dealer depending on your location.

We also can generate reports as drafting notes inside mastercam.