Which VMC?

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

ROFL!!!!!!

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James M.

Mastercam Enthusiast

[beav700]

I did not have a chance to work on Fedal or Haas so can't say if they are good or bad. However, I've been operating and programming Hurcos for last few years and belive that there is no other control like it on this planet.

I'm currently doing all types of aluminum mold inserts that weight no more than half a pound. This is where the Hurco shines. Might not be the best machine for burying 2" rougher into A2 three inches deep, but it does a great job on small parts.The best think is the control "UltiMax" which is so much faster than using Mastercam for most parts. By the time I draw geometry in MC ,I'm already cutting the part on UltiMax.The control is so simple that I was able to teach programming and setup of the machine to a new guy in one day.

The only bad thing about the control is that it does have a limited G-Code capabilities. For example our new Toshiba HMC has eleven different drilling/boring cicles where Hurco has only six. But than again, I never had to use those advanced drilling cycles in our new machine anyways, but it's nice to know that if you need a custom drilling operation, you can use those special codes. But than again, Mastercam does not support it so you have to write it your self.

Hurco was made by mold makers for mold makers, period. The machine is not for heavy cutting or high volume production. It shines only in job shop machine shops, mold/die shops or anyplace that does five to ten different parts/programs a day.

I've used Ez-Track, Anilam, Siemens,Tosnuc 8 and Fanuc and seing how fast and simple the UltiMax is, it makes me think why anybody would want to use anything alse.

When it comes to sufaces, it cuts them better than any other machine I worked on. The MAX runs on Pentium 300MHZ based PC so the control is fast. Upgrading is as simple as callind and PC suplier.Want 64 megs of aditional memory, $36 at BestBuy. Our brand new $400.000 Toshiba with Tonsuc888 control still runs on Intel 386 with 2MB of ram.You'll get 4MB of ram when you get new Haas.Are those guys for real.My digital camera that fits in my pocket has 128 megs of ram and faster chip than most of the controls out there.

Just my .002

[This message has been edited by beav700 (edited 07-26-2001).]

[Rekd™]

Sounds like a good machine. But let me (politely) point out that Mastercam lets you make ANY drill cycle you could ever imagine. I even made one for a drop stop! (putting a dowel pin in the spindle and having it locate the part, all done in the program with no manual edits.) That's one of the many great features about this software.. you can make it do just about anything you want, even the dishes!

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Yes I believe you can progrm it to do the dishes. I once used it to program a robot partially. I do believe Mastercam is the most powerful Mid-Range CAD/CAM System. Yes it does take a lot of post work for the really trick stuff but hey, I've not encountered anything yet that could not be programmed in Mastercam. Had some things that I thought were impossible but someone showed me the stuff and off we went.

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James M.

Mastercam Enthusiast

[Toby]

Tony,

As with most places of business money is an object! It would be important for everyone to have an idea of what your budget is and then we could make a more accurate recommendation within that price range. I'm sure we would all like to have the "cadillacs" of the industry but that is, obviously, not possible with everyone. There is a grand canyon of difference between machines like Haases and the A55 line of LeBlond Makinos,Matsuuras, or Super Mazak horizontal cells. Let's not even get into the price differences. Another factor is that some machines are purchased for a specific purpose in mind. What is needed, used, and appropriate for Multax and others maybe out of price range and of little value to your needs. Just my .02C

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Toby Baughman

Programming Supervisor

Saint Gobain Semicon Group Inc.

Vs8.1.1 LvL3 Mill + solids

[Tony]

Beav

I don't draw anything, I import models from cad files "Paperless"

If I loaded this model into the Hurco

(With there option package to do so) could I

Cut this model/carbon within plus or +/-.0002?

Tony

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Tony ]

[Multax]

Dear Mr. Meyette, The Constitutional Enthusiast

You have claimed enthusiasm for the U.S. Constitution. Now you will have an opportunity to prove whether you represent an intelligent and well-informed commentator or an ignorant fool. Meyette, you paraphrased one of the statements used to describe the limits of the First Amendment, you can’t yell fire in a crowed theater, please do show us your erudite intellect and give us the name of the person that first uttered that statement in addition to the place and circumstances that gave rise to its discussion. I hope this time you can give us a serious answer to a vital topic and not hide behind the Webmaster and others that defend you when you fail to conceptualize and articulate intelligent, informed, and well-written answers to serious questions.

Mr. Meyette, if a student in your Mastercam class demonstrated a consistent predilection for errors in all phases of CAM programming, you would fail them and rightfully so. In addition, you have mentioned that you had modified some 200 posts as a Mastercam sales representative. Post Processor Editing requires the utmost care in punctuation, syntax, spelling, and format. With that in mind Mr. Meyette, why do you find it so difficult to write and send posts to emastercam.com with complete sentences, paragraphs, and correctly spelled words? Mastercam’s Post Processor functionality does not tolerate infantile punctuation, syntax, spelling, and format errors.

Mr. Meyette, can you explain what diagnostic test results a ball bar can and cannot give? Can you tell us what type of instrument you would use to measure the surface finish of a part?

Dear Rekd

You failed to comprehend this statement, “Consequently, your assertion requires a volume of VERIFIABLE test data that you probably do not posses.” Consequently, I will explain this statement in a manner that even you will understand. You assert in the form of an absolute statement that Boston Digital produces the best surface finishes of any CNC VMC in the world. In order to validate that assertion, you would have to test at the minimum. Every high-end three axis CNC VMC with approximately the same X, Y, Z travels in a temperature controlled test facility. In addition, every machine would have to have matched tool holders from the same manufacturer and have the same tool holder design, BT, CATV, or HSK. Every tool holder would have to have matched inserts with the correct coating, design, and grade from the same manufacturer to cut the test material. The test must include matched part material. It would help if every machine had the same control, then you could eliminate the quality of the post-processor and the control as a variable. Every machine would have to have ball screws from the same manufacturer with the same grade, design, and pitch. Every machine would have to have the same servo motors, spindle motors, and linear guides for those machines that have linear guides. The test part programs must come from the same CADCAM system with matched feeds, speeds, and doc’s. The listed specifications for the test would eliminate most, but not all of the variables. Consequently, once the test specification has eliminated ALL variables, except one, the impact that the design, quality of materials, and overall build quality of each machinetool has on the part finish. Then the test can determine which machine tool can produce the best surface finish.

Rekd, once you have completed this extensive CNC VMC comparison test, and if the Boston Digital VMC of your choice wins the test, then your assertion will have earned its validity. Until then, you have simply voiced your opinion.

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Since I haven't ran, or even HEARD of some of the machines you're boasting, I can

hardly make an experienced claim to it's capabilities/pricing.

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Rekd, I do not boast, I simply state what I can corroborate with independently verifiable information. The fact that you have not even HEARD of some of the machines that I have mentioned in my post speaks volumes about your knowledge of machine tools.

Multax

[ 07-28-2001: Message edited by: Multax ]

[beav700]

Hi Tony.

.0002 you say. That's alot to ask for from any machine. Most CNC machines have .0002 in their specs. ( on paper ), you add room temperature/machine temperature, tool wear,tool deflection,etc.etc.etc.

We have some jobs with +0000 -.0005 tol. and sometimes we're having trouble holding sizes. Mind that our Hurcos are not new by any means. If the part you showed is what you do all the time and have to hold .0002 then Hurco is not the machine for you. I would look at some Japanese machines.

On top of that, you don't do parts from prints and sketches. The Ultimax is specially design to get the part cutting from a print (paper)in a matter of minutes without using any CAM package. Since you already have a CAD file, the best part of Hurco machines (the Ultimax Control) is useless to you. The part you showing looks busy and without using Mastercam or some other cam, would take a long time to do in Ultimax 4. If you end up using Mastercam then you really don't need Hurco machine.

Conversational programming is what Hurco is all about.That means that people out in the shop floor can take a print and create a program in minutes. That's what we do. I do 60% of all programming on Hurco and 40% on Mastercam. The reason we use Hurcos is that most of our work comes in in form of blue prints and like I said before, I can take a print and create a program in less time than it would take me to just to draw the geometry in Mastercam.

[ 07-28-2001: Message edited by: beav700 ]

[Rekd™]

Well, Gee... Multax, I didn't know I was going to get a lecture on English, Grammer, machine technology, and what ever else you might be trying to show off here... but let me restate my, um... opinion, one more time for you...

quote:

---

My (suppressed) opinions are, as I stated, my (suppressed) opinions. They are based on my short career (15 years or so) as a machinist/programmer in the USA, on the machines I've ran before. And BD is, in my (suppressed) opinion, THE BEST. Period.

---

Now, what part of my opinion did you not understand???

Also... What part of;

quote:

---

...on the machines I've ran before

---

did you ALSO not understand???

Given the knowledge of my experience, however short it may be, and the performance of the different machines I have ran... I will state it ONE MORE TIME FOR YOU... BD is, in MY OWN SUPPRESSED OPINION... the best, PERIOD!!! I have made my decisions on my OWN PERSONAL EXPERIANCE, and that's it. Stop trying to make this into a peeing contest, because we're probably not interested in you self proclaimed supreme knowledge of the subject of which machine is better than which, and who can complete a sentence or not. The man asked for opinions, and that's what we're (trying) to give him.

Now get off your soap box... and let it go.

[gcode]

OT: I see they've added private messaging,

Instant Graemlins and Instant UBB code.

What we reall need is a BIG IGNORE BUTTON

[Multax]

Well, Gee... Multax, I didn't know I was going to get a lecture on English, Grammer, machine technology, and what ever else you might be trying to show off here... but let me restate my, um... opinion, one more time for you...

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Dear Rekd

Multax’s post had two distinct sections, each addressed to two different people. Unfortunately, your English reading comprehension has failed you! The section addressed to you, Rekd, did not mention that you need improvements in (“I didn't know I was going to get a lecture on English, Grammar” English punctuation, syntax, and spelling. However, section two labeled as Dear Rekd presented a challenge to your ASSERTIONS and OPINIONS and outlined a test method to determine the CNC VMC that produces the best surface finishes. Rekd, your response did not address that section. Perhaps you do not recognize the described protocol and cannot apply it to the discussion at hand. Multax does not “show off here...” at emastercam.com. And as for your opinion, you should express it, the Webmaster notwithstanding. However Rekd, always remember that your employer and/or clients did not hire YOU for your OPINIONS. They hired you based on your interview performance and resume. Your resume lists your past and present work experiences, accomplishments, awards, and references. These combined elements describe your KNOWLEDGE and ability to perform as a professional cnc programmer. They most certainly do describe your OPINIONS! Workplace politics aside, I would hope that you, Rekd, want your workplace performance judged on what you KNOW and what you can DO, not on your OPINIONS! As for the Boston Digital VMC’s that you seem too chary, they to, do not trade in OPINIONS, the Mastercam CADCAM program does not give a wit about your opinions. Opinion based programming + opinion-based machining practices = ONE DEAD BOSTON DIGITAL VMC!

When someone posts a question or a request at emastercam.com about computers, machining, posts, programming, or another technical subject, unless they specifically request an opinion, they do not or should not have any interest in the respondent’s FEELINGS, OPINIONS, or WHAT THEY THINK. They want answers ASAP, based on what you, the respondent KNOWS. Nothing more and nothing less! The response should appear in a clear, concise, and well-written sentence or paragraph that solves the problem based on KNOWLEDGE or independently verifiable information, and not I think, or maybe, or perhaps, or IMHO.

Multax

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quote:

My (suppressed) opinions are, as I stated, my (suppressed) opinions. They are based on my short career (15 years or so) as a machinist/programmer in the USA, on the machines I've ran before. And BD is, in my (suppressed) opinion, THE BEST. Period.

Now, what part of my opinion did you not understand???

Also... What part of;

quote:

...on the machines I've ran before

did you ALSO not understand???

Given the knowledge of my experience, however short it may be, and the performance of the different machines I have ran... I will state it ONE MORE TIME FOR YOU... BD is, in MY OWN SUPPRESSED OPINION... the best, PERIOD!!! I have made my decisions on my OWN PERSONAL EXPERIANCE, and that's it.

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Stop trying to make this into a peeing contest,

Rekd, Multax does not boast, nor does Multax engage in ###### contests, Multax simply states what Multax can corroborate with independently verifiable information.

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because we're probably not interested in you self proclaimed supreme knowledge of the subject of which machine is better than which,

Rekd, please show us your erudite mind and demonstrate to the emastercam.com community in which sentence Multax claims or uses any of the words in this sentence “self proclaimed supreme knowledge of the subject of which machine is better than which,”

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and who can complete a sentence or not.

Multax’s post had two distinct sections, each addressed to two different people. Unfortunately, your English reading comprehension powers have failed you! The section addressed to you, Rekd, did not mention that you need improvements in (“I didn't know I was going to get a lecture on English, Grammar” English punctuation, syntax, and spelling.

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Dear Gcode

OT: I see they've added private messaging, Instant Graemlins [GREMLINS] and Instant UBB code. What we reall [REALLY] need is a BIG IGNORE BUTTON

Multax

[Bullines]

OT: Gcode's spelling of graemlins is correct. It's a term for characters that are used to convey an emotion, as defined in the UBB FAQ ( http://www.emastercam.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=faq ). Graemlins are synonymous with smileys and emoticons.

[gcode]

I'll say it again!

We really really really need an INGORE button!

[Rekd™]

I agree, Gcode. It appears that Multax just likes to hear himself talk. He just feels he HAS to take apart every post made on this subject and point out all the errors and/or misconceptions. Had I known he was going to write a short novel on this subjec/thread, I wouldn't have gotten him started. But now it would seem he has taken a large step up from his soapbox and is boasting just to hear himslef boast.

Mayhaps he'll soon realize that he's not teaching a class here. And this is NOT a multi-million dollar government project that has to be completely researched beforehand. We're just trying to give, I'll say it again... OPINIONS, based on which machine we THINK is best. Geez

So unless Multax wants to fund me to purchase several of the machines we're discussing so I can PROVE they're better or worse, I wish he'd just, um... Oh, never mind.

On a different note.. I saw a bumper sticker once that said something to the effect of:

Bill Clinton; Like a peice of poo that just won't flush.

Feel free to replace Bill Clinton with any name you feel may apply...

Sorry if this post is offensive, webby, but I've had to pull out my dictionary twice now. It's really getting annoying reading the nonsensical ravings of this obviously under-worked mind. *sigh*

[Rekd™]

I also noticed, in the personal profiles page for forum users, an "Add to your ignore list" link, but it doesn't work for general posts.

Too bad.

[biss03]

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multax:

When someone posts a question or a request at emastercam.com about computers, machining, posts, programming, or another technical subject, unless they specifically request an opinion, they do not or should not have any interest in the respondent’s FEELINGS, OPINIONS, or WHAT THEY THINK. They want answers ASAP, based on what you, the respondent KNOWS. Nothing more and nothing less! The response should appear in a clear, concise, and well-written sentence or paragraph that solves the problem based on KNOWLEDGE or independently verifiable information, and not I think, or maybe, or perhaps, or IMHO.

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the beginning of this post starts with a simple question of which vmc should be purchased to do a certain job. The person posting this question asked for peoples suggestions based on experiences. Therefore, your above statement does not apply in this post. I know this is not my argument but when arrogant jack-___es come on here and with there holier-than-thou attitude, it does nothing to help keeep tensions down. Everything you have posted goes against what you are saying because to me (and i'm sure others will agree!!), all you have done is gave us your opinion of what people want when they post on the forum. You haven't done any extensive studies of people who post on this forum and find out exactly what it is they want. Have you? So you have no proof to back what you are saying. Am I right? Of course I am, because I am one of the people who posts questions on this forum and do not care if it is someones opinion as long as they have the experience to back it up.

[Smit]

I am not a black belt Mastercam Guru, nor have I done extensive tests on many or all of the machines available in the world. But I do spel prety good. I like Mori Seiki's the best, based on my own petty experience.

Tanks for yor time.

Lary

P.S. When I ask a question I respect and appreciate all replies. Whether they are based on hard documented facts or opinions from experiences. Hey, they're free!!

[Kenneth Potter]

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Quote

Holier-than-thou attitude !!!

________

hahahahaaaaaahh

Bulls Eye!

Mori seiki 3 table index, 4 axis horizontal( SH-50) was the best machining I have used . MAN !!! what a work horse . Its really fun to do tombstone machining on.

 

Kenneth Potter

[gcode]

In this case, I don't thinks its a

"holier than thou" attitude.

I thinks its a holier than EVERYBODY" attitude

[Toby]

I'm wondering if a person could get voted off the forum by popular demand?

[Bullines]

Voted off like Survivor? Probably not, but maybe forum members' reliability and accountability could be appraised. We'll see...

[bhyde]

All opinions aside for a moment. Some people need attention more than others. If that person is ignored(dont even read the posts!)and doesnt get a reply to the childish remarks, they tend to fade away and get bored with wasting their time and ours!!!

[Trevor Bailey]

I agree with Bill. The person in question is only trying to get a response. So far, we have given him what he has wanted.

I actually find the postings kind of amusing and informative. Although he has outright targeted a couple of members, he has also made a few good points.

If the attacks persist, do not reply. If he responds to a post with an answer to a direct question, then that's all the better for everyone trying to learn.

Trevor Bailey

[Bob]

Mr Multax must be a real bear to work with sounds a little childish nuf said

 

[awheeler]

Multax, You remind me of the guy who sits in the cubicle next to me at work. He has just graduated w/his BS in engineering and insists on explaining, in detail, to anyone facing towards his general direction, his assesment of the universal workings of any idea that any one may have regarding any thing and why his assesment has found every flaw that may be there now or later because of his immense intelligence. Like him, you too are a MORON attempting to hide your lack of intelligence by baffling us with bulls**t. There is a saying I have oft heard and repeat as much, "If you ask 15 different machinist how to do a thing you WILL get 15 different answers." This Forum only proves it. Machinist are creatures made of the stuff of opinion because machining is not a black and white process it is an artform in varying shades of grey.--aaron

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: awheeler ]