Which VMC?

[Tony]

Hello

We are thinking of adding another VMC

to the shop.I will be roughing out core and cavity blocks as well as finishing them also making precision electrodes.

The machines suggested to me (From above)

so far are a Fadal(My choice too.)

The big Hurco, twin screen deal(can they surface well)?

and a Mazak (I am not making Mold bases though)

What about HAAS?

What are your experiences?

Thank you everyone.

Tony

 

[TOOLDEV]

Four Years ago I was confronted with the same problem and went with a Haas.

Now I have 3 off them and My next machine will also be a Haas.

However, I have worked with a Mazak before

and found them to be very good machines also.

Hurco and Fadal I don't know anything about.

With Haas, I found, You get a lot of value for Your Money.

[bhyde]

I have never heard of Fadal and "Precision" in one sentence before. If it were my money, I would get a Mori Seiki!

Just my thought

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Bill Hyde

Hewlett-Packard Model Shop

Boise,Id 83714

[cadcam]

I would say part of the thought has to be bang for the buck.

As for the Haas & Fadal they are much a like in this area.

My use of the machines over the years for mold making has been with both.

I prefer the Haas for two reasons one is the control and the ease of setup.

There used to another. That was the older Fadal's had a hard time make a round pocket with in .001 or less.

As I know they are better now.

But the Fadal is truly a good machine along with Haas for the money.

Haas has been great at support over the years.

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jay/ aka cadcam

Precision Programming

web: www.ppcadcam.com

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[Trevor Bailey]

I have ran many different types of machines. HAAS's have great horsepower ratio's for extreme roughing and they are easy to use and cheap. Fadal's are also "OK", but tend to break down or burn spindles too often. The machines of choice I am looking at now are the bigger Bostonmatics and MAZAK's(Compatable table size is to the 4020). Mori Seiki's are good machines also, but they are really expensive. If you are really looking for a top quality finish, look at Mazak, Mori, or Boston.

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Trevor Bailey

[email protected]

Specializing in Contract Programming

[cadcam]

And look at it in most cases double the money.

that is what i have seen.

i am a big mazak fan from running some of there high speed mahines.

Along with this i find the mazaks to be better machine but control wise there is more to learn and know.

but this is ok from my view.the mahine is nice in many ways.

i just keep throwing my .002 out there i should be up to a buck now.

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jay/ aka cadcam

Precision Programming

web: www.ppcadcam.com

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[Toby]

Mazaks have a real nice and unique high speed machining function. (possible added-cost?)

Haas' can be a safe and easy to use machine with easy 4th axis capabilities, macros if wanted/needed.

Fadals- you get what you pay for!

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Toby Baughman

Programming Supervisor

Saint Gobain Semicon Group Inc.

Vs8.1.1 LvL3 Mill + solids

[gcode]

I have been using Haas machines for 5 years.

I have found them to be very easy to setup

and run. Most of the work I have done

has been light duty 2 1/2 and 4X work

in aluminum and 303 SS so I can't speak to their roughing abilities.

They have not been as reliable as I would have liked, but I cannot compare them to any other machining center, so perhaps I'm not being fair. The service I've recieved from my local dealer has been excellent.

I run a Takisawa lathe that has run 2 shifts a day for 5 1/2 years without a service call

so maybe I'm holding the mills to too high a standard

If money was no object, the Kitamura line of machining centers looks very nice, but money is always an issue.

 

[tirenut]

VMC's - so many choices, so few truly good machines. We have Fadal's, HAAS, Hermle, Sharnoa, Cinci's, and Hurco's and they are all good in certain ways. It really is going to depend on what you want to cut on them and how good your dealer/distributor is.

Our HAAS machines have been great value for the money. They have been running for three years non-stop with little maintenance. They are not all that great for roughing steel, although they will do an adequate job. Just take their HP ratings with a grain of salt. You can stall their spindle and then do the numbers and you are nowhere near the 20 or 30 HP number - we know, we cut steel with ours everyday. Service is A1 - now with the HFO's you get great response and great parts availability - no complaints here. The control is also the most operator friendly of any I've seen.

Fadals are also respectable, but from our experience, I would rather have a HAAS. Our Fadals just can't take the cut in steel. It should, but it just won't. Service is also good on these machines, but alot depends on your dealer.

The next machine we plan to buy is a DAEWOO - I know, I know, a what? Trust me, take the time to look at these things if you are serious about cutting steel. They are monsters when it comes to cutting. We ran a demo on a Diamond Series 500 and it flat smokes our HAAS or Fadal. True 30 Hp spindles, and you can check it through cutting. The same cut that will stall our HAAS was done with ease on the Daewoo and it had plenty of headroom to spare. It is quick (1000 ipm rapids on boxways) has a chilled spindle (one up on HAAS here) and is a true production machine. It is a VERY beefy all Meehanite casting (comparable to a Mazak) and damps your cuts well. It dwarfs a comparable size Fadal or Haas. It has a side mount 30 tool changer that blows HAAS's or Fadals away. You also get a Fanuc 18i series control which is a plus to me, since there are lots of operators that are familiar with the "fanuc" way of doing things. The machine is good for surfacing, if that is what you are into. Instead of an ethernet option on the HAAS or upgraded memory options, you can buy inexpensive flash memeory cards that plug right into the PCMCIA slot on the fanuc that give you massive on board storage capabilities - a major plus to us since we have 40 meg files. The price is also very attractive. It's a little more expensive than the HAAS or Fadal base prices, but you will find that once you option out either one of those machine with memory options, ethernet, spindle options, thru spindle coolant, conveyors, high speed machine options, remote jog handle, etc... the prices aren't all that different and it is more than made up by the performance difference. Longevity and reliability issues are the only question marks we have, but Daewoo's lathes are a the top of their game, so we'll see.

All distributors will give you a demo and cut your parts with your programs and your tools if you ask them. That is really the best way to test everything and get a true "feel" for the machine.

This is only my opinion, and I gurantee everyone has a different one on this subject. There is little info out there on VMC's but like I said, your dealer is going to make 60% of your decision for you. Just my 2 cents. Fire away!

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[This message has been edited by tirenut (edited 07-25-2001).]

[sbrooks]

I have used bosto's,okuma's and haas.The haas are cheep but you get what you pay for.Were i worked before they bought 3 haas 2 vf3 and 1 vf6 the repair guy was in ever week repairing them.They just couldn't take mill steel.The okuma is a work horse.I now work at a valve company.We make valves out of every thing.From hastelloy to low carbon and the only time i see a repair guy is for a PM and we use okuma's.Bosto's are good finishing machines.They can't take the cuts like the okuma but the are very accurate.We had a 14-40 built in 1979 and still could hold .0002.

[cadcam]

Tirenut how does the price on the Dawoo compare to the Hass & Fadal?

i to have heard some pretty good things about them.

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jay/ aka cadcam

Precision Programming

web: www.ppcadcam.com

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[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

If I owned a shop, there would be nothing but Mori Seikis, Kitamuras, Yasdas and/or Makinos. I know, there are some other fine European, American, and Japanese models out there for less money but being the stalwart Fanuc fan I am, I gotta go with that.

I think HAAS, and Fadal have their place, but the kind of work I would do(if I owned my own shop), they would just not cut the mustard. I need something in the range of 30-50 TRUE Horsepower. Mori and Makino tend to be on the conservative side when they spec their machines, so if you see 30 HP, you're getting more than that. Juat make some test cuts. The proof is there.

I know they are EXPENSIVE but I would rather buy 1 of these than 2 or 3 lesser machine tools. JMHO.

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James M.

Mastercam Enthusiast

[This message has been edited by James Meyette (edited 07-26-2001).]

[tirenut]

cadcam....

 

The Daewoo DMV500S Diamond Series was going to run around 100,000. This got you a 40x20 machine, a true 30Hp spindle (28hp continuous duty), box ways, true chilled spindle, 30tool side mount ATC with 1.5 sec change time (4 sec chip to chip), 1000ipm rapids on box ways, thru spindle coolant, conveyors, lighting, Fanuc 18i series control, remote jog, full surface machining cpabilities without RS-232 by way of PCMCIA flash memory cards, and LOTS of cutting capabilities.

A comparable size HAAS (which there really isn't one) would be pretty close to the DMV's price. A base model VF3B (40x20 machine, with 20hp geared head and 20tool atc) is going to run 65,000 and then if you upgrade the tool changer, get the high torque spindle option, add a conveyor, max out the RAM in the controller, add the ethernet option, thru spindle coolant, remote job, lighting, get the high speed machining option, macro capability, wired for 4th axis and a few other options, you are getting to within 15,000 of the Daewoo.

This VF3 HAAS machine won't hold a candle to the Daewoo though. It is the same size travels with 40 taper, but all comparisons end there. The ballscrews are smaller, it's riding on linear ways (not necessarily bad), has slower rapid rates, and has nowhere near the rigidity.

And the big difference - POWER! It will advertise that is has 20hp vector drive, but guess what? Pull the covers and that motor is a 10hp continuous duty! Run it through a geared head, use the wye-delta switching, and you "may" get 20hp for five minutes, but that's it (and I don't even think that is true based on actual tests) The daewoo is a true 28hp continuous duty (much like the Makino's, Mori's, etc..) and there is a marked difference when you see these machines cut.

The only other option you have if you are intent on getting a HAAS is to step up to their VF5 50taper 30hp. This gives you bigger screws, added rigidity of 50taper, 30 tool ATC, and some other stuff, but it's base price is 105,000 - right where the daewoo is. That Haas price doesn't give you any of your needed options which will sky-rocket its price in a hurry - especially if you need high rpm's out of that 50 taper head (BIG money) The base 50 taper max RPM is 5,000 rpm - hardly enough to do any sort of finish operations. You would also have to get the high speed machining option, ethernet, max out your ram, etc....... you would have lots of money in it. The VF5 would give you a little more travel, but if you look at total machine weight between the VF5 50 taper and the daewoo, you will see the daewoo still has the upper hand in bulk which leads to a lots more stable cutting platform.

I am not bashing the HAAS's though, like I said we own them and like them for the value and what we do with them. They are a versatile machine that can do many things for a shop, but if you are going to set your sights on making money by throwing serious chips in serious material, we looked elsewhere. Test cuts and your dealer are the key - they may make a liar out of everything I just said, but I doubt it - been there, done that.

[This message has been edited by tirenut (edited 07-25-2001).]

[Tony]

Thank you all that responded, very valuable information.

I guess it's time for me to come clean...

You see where I work, we specialize in "Micro" tooling and molding.

So my tool library goes from .015 dia to a 1" dia. shell mill!!!!

I know what a puss, Hey it looks big on the tube or until you create line parallel .025

and the line jumps off the screen!

I did my share of Dash board molds (Big).

yep, no more dragging chains around, no more

waiting for the hoist, the Noise!!

I jumped ship to micro technology.

So what I am saying is I don't need Big Horsepower from a VMC.

My employer keep's pushing towards the 30" Hurco with the utlimax 4 control...(Sales pitch)"Then Anyone can use it"

Right,Even a Monkey

 

[Balbir]

I dont like Fadal

Buy Hass or OKK

[Scott Bond]

Hi

If its the haas,the fadal;;;; we have several of both. I favor the haas just because its easier for me to mirror.

If you have more resources----- my preff;

Mazak for a speedy machine "alum. molds"

OKK for beefy cuts on "steel molds"

"all machines hate poco3 in the tank"

I had a Mazak and I dont know what their service is like,because I never had a reason to call.I have talked to other men that had the same experiance with other brands.

 

[limitless creativity]

I work for Kitamura so I am a little bias here but I also have ran mori's, mazak, Haas, Cinncinati's, ect, all ran well in my opinion. My only request before buying is to do your homework. Compare apples to apples, right down to the casting, motors, drives, control functions, and also service!!!. All have their plus's and minus's. Get references if possible from the distributor.

Mike

[mikee]

If you are used to a funac type control, you will HATE the n/c side of a hurco. It sucks. No mdi,It needs the n/c option package to get the upper end g and m codes. Break a tool in the middle of a run and its copy and paste to restart where you left off (mdi is much easier)......

Conversational, it can be a pain at times in a very busy program.

my 10 cents.

 

[Mike-T]

No one has mentioned Matsuura.

We have 11 with another on the way. A bit spendier but..... You get what you pay for.

"Good Iron"

[Rekd™]

Fadal? Pffft.

HAAS? hrmmm.

Boston Digital? Now you're talking!

BD is the premier surfacing center. Period.

They don't get any better than BD. But you can buy 3 or 4 Fadals or HAAS' for the price of 1 BD. I've ran Mori's, but not surfaced with them.

If money is no object, BD all the way. Otherwise, HAAS or maybe Kitamura. (A bit more pricy than HAAS, but don't plan on seeing the repair guy around, cuz they don't break very often.)

[Rekd™]

As an adendum to my previous post, I feel I am not allowed to make any, um, judgements on what machine to buy. So you'll have to figure it out for yourself.

Also, please delete this topic, as it contains people's opinions about machinery that may be unsettling to the manufacturers.

[Multax]

Dear Rekd

Although Boston Digital builds America’s BEST VMC for close tolerance work with exceptional surface finishes, to declare that “BD is the premier surfacing center. Period.” requires that you defend an absolute statement. Consequently, your assertion requires a volume of VERIFIABLE test data that you probably do not posses. REMEMBER Rekd, I completely agree that Boston Digital builds EXCEPTIONALLY accurate 3, 4, and 5 axis VMC’s, among the very best in the world. However, I believe that in a machine off between a 3 axis Makino V55 and a 3 axis Boston Digital, poor Tony would have BLOODY chips all over the floor!!! Now, for the MOST ACCURATE VMC in the world; Société Genevoise

d' Instruments de Physique’s SIP 5000.

Fadal? Pffft.

HAAS? hrmmm.

Boston Digital? Now you're talking!

But you can buy 3 or 4 Fadals or HAAS' for the price of 1 BD. I've ran Mori's, but not surfaced with them.

If money is no object, BD all the way.

Otherwise, HAAS or maybe Kitamura. (A bit more pricy than HAAS, but don't plan on seeing the repair guy around, cuz they don't break very often.)

BD? Excellent Machine

Mitsui Seiki? Likewise

SIP? Now you're talking!

But you can buy 3 or 4 BD’s for the price of 1 SIP.

If money is no object, SIP all the way.

Otherwise, Kuraki or maybe Kitamura. (A bit more pricy than HAAS, but don't plan on seeing the repair guy around, cuz they don't break very often.)

Again Rekd, you have shown a zeal for Boston Digital equaled or exceeded only by Mr. Meyette’s zealousness for Mastercam. However, I can understand your BLOODLUST for Boston Digital’s machines.

Dear Tony

Tony, if at all possible, buy a used 98 or later 3 axis BD, 3 axis V55 Makino, or visit PrestigeEquipment.Com, they have a 1998 OKK PCV-55 Ref #10468.

Multax

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

He's baaaaaakkkkk! and in rare form.

quote:

---

Although Boston Digital builds America’s BEST VMC for close tolerance work with exceptional surface finishes, to declare that “BD is the premier surfacing center. Period.” requires that you defend an absolute statement. Consequently, your assertion requires a volume of VERIFIABLE test data that you probably do not posses.

---

Rekd carries around a Renishaw Ball Bar in his back pocket, I've seen it. LOL!

BTW, the shop I currently work in has 2 Boston DIgital 5 Axis Machines. The FINISH work they produce is quite nice. We machine Cylinder Head Ports with them.

Just my $.02

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James M.

Mastercam Enthusiast

[L Hanft]

You have to love it......... James amd multitax and the "hows your dealer" remarks!

This web site rocks.... it is just the kind of place to meet some interesting personalities and gather up lots of useful and sometimes ammusing information and interations. My 107 year old GG grandfather told me to listen to everyones ideas and then use the best of what I'd heard for myself.......... wise man!

So to webby and everyone else... keep it up. I appreciate a lively informative dialog.

MasterCam.... and its loyal users!

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[Rekd™]

Multax, Let me rephrase my statement...

Fadal? Pffft.

HAAS? hrmmm.

Boston Digital? Now you're talking!

In my suppressed opinion, BD is the premier surfacing center. Period.

They don't get any better than BD. But you can buy 3 or 4 Fadals or HAAS' for the price of 1 BD. I've ran Mori's, but not surfaced with them.

If money is no object, BD all the way. Otherwise, HAAS or maybe Kitamura. (A bit more pricy than HAAS, but don't plan on seeing the repair guy around, cuz they don't break very often.)

That better??

Since I haven't ran, or even HEARD of some of the machines you're boasting, I can hardly make an experienced claim to it's capabilities/pricing. My (suppressed) opinions are, as I stated, my (suppressed) opinions. They are based on my short career (15 years or so) as a machinist/programmer in the USA, on the machines I've ran before. And BD is, in my (suppressed) opinion, THE BEST. Period.

But then, we're not supposed to express our opinions on this forum. So it's a mute point as far as I'm concerned. (sorry, webby, but I gotta take the digs when I can. I still wub joo, but dang...)

[This message has been edited by Rekd (edited 07-26-2001).]