Cimatron demo

[Mark H]

Management has a Cimatron salesman coming to give us a demo. I would like to prepare for this meeting. I don't know much about it, but I did check out their website. They make it sound good, but does it actually deliver? How does Mastercam stack up against Cimatron? Anything that one can do that the other cant? Specifically we make molds and I do quite a bit of modeling as well as 3-axis toolpaths.

 

Also the salesman claims that he can program toolpaths 40% faster than Mastercam. I think thats how he got his foot in the door...

[gcode]

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the salesman claims that he can program toolpaths 40% faster than Mastercam

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Give him one of you models and say "Show Me".

 

Most CAD/CAM salesmen show up and try to give you a canned demo they knows by heart. Get him off his canned part and make him demo YOUR work.

[crazy^millman]

Well it uses a 3d space for all its modeling and for its machining. It is a sound program from what I have heard about it from people who have used it. I did convert a Cimatron user to Mastercam a couple years ago. Winnie has a good deal of knowledge about it but think the time difference is going to catch you there.

 

I am with Gcode make him use one of your models. Years ago when I got into Mastercam I gave Gibbs, Surfcam and Mastercam all the same part and said show me. Mastercam rep was the only one capable of modeling my part in his software and macking chips with the others only wanted to show me their parts.

 

Good luck!!!!

[Anthony CIMCO]

Mark, what type of work do you guys do?

[Mark H]

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Mark, what type of work do you guys do?

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We make molds, which require 3D machining of steel and electrodes. We are usually given a 3D cad file which may or may not need some cleanup. Then make toolpaths for the core and cavity. Then modify the cad file to make the electrode toolpaths. The mods for the electrodes is basically flipping the part 180 and extendingtrimming surfaces.

 

Also thanks for the replies so far. I was planning on giving them a complicated part to try.

[gcode]

Mark you don't need Cimmatron, you need to add MoldPlus to your Mastercam seat

[beej]

I used cimatron in the mold industry for 3 years. I didn't like it at first but once I got used to the interface, I have to say I really liked it a lot. The two features I liked the best are the stock recognition and the fact that it was able to recognize where a short tool wouldn't reach and substitute a long tool in it's place. That was some amazing technology and I was surprised how efficient it worked.

 

The only way the cimatron can program 40% faster is if your counting the fact that it takes a little extra effort to figure out where a short tool will reach versus a long tool. the process time is no different.

 

That said when I went to work for a new place that was just opening up, I was in charge of getting a New CNC department started from the ground up. And I chose Mastercam because of an overwhelming price difference.

[SweetCUMMINS]

How many of you guys use the moldplus program. We do molds which involve lots of 3d now since the engineers think it looks better but serves no general purpose. I also just do my electrodes 180 degrees from norm. I have read the moldplus sales pitch in fliers and on the net but would like others input on the software. Please any suggestions???

[Ed@Elite]

While I have never used Cimatron, I have heard from people it is pretty good. Myself, I have been using Mastercam for 12 years. About 5 years ago I started to also use Delcam's PowerShape and PowerMill. When it comes to advanced 3D modeling, PowerShape blows away Mastercam. But 2d stuff and easier 3d stuff Mastercam is the only way to go. I also use Powermill for Machining, it is a way more powerful program than Mastercam for tight tolerance and large files. But again, Mastercam blows it away in 2d. But while Mastercam is around $15K, PowerShape and PowerMill are around $30K. So it really depends on what type of Molds you build.

 

I have to say that Mastercam has done a really good job with X MR1, but there are still the quirks that have always been with Mastercam.

 

Moldplus is a GREAT add on program for Mastercam. My guys use it constantly for trimming, spliting, etc. We don't do much electrode work so I can't comment on that.

[bestguest]

Mark,

I have used Cimatron on and off form many years.At the risk of getting torched here Cimatron just rocks for mold work.QuickSplit is just simply awesome.Unlimited pull direcions an fully automatic internal shut-off surface creation.Quick electrode is another killer application.Automatic print creation and template electrode creation.The downside to Cimatron is a lenthy learning curve as it is pretty deep but the training materials and on-line help is very good.Cimatron NC when I first started using it was very intimidating.It gets very deep and the are lots of shortcuts to remember.The other downside is that not may companies in North America use it.I believe that the reason is price point and marketing.Have the saleman demo your part from start to finish.Get a 30 day and ask to speak to some current local users.

 

Good luck

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I have used Moldplus and Moldmakers should not be without it. Automatic Core/Cavity Separation, Parting line splits, Electrode Maker. I have not used Cimmatron, but have a frind that does and he said that Moldplus pretty much makes the functionality between Cimmatron and Mastercam nearly equal. He's a CImmatron guy so he favors his stuff. Moldplus is a VERY reasonable add-on price.

[bestguest]

James,

The biggest difference between Mold+ and Cimatron is that Cimatron is fully parametric and is the only modeling software that I am of aware of that is also attribute driven.What this means is that I can assign an attribute to a parting line for instance and than say all blue colored parting lines goto level 100.The systems is smart enough to know that the blue parting lines also have surfaces that they generated (they go with the blue parting lines)and any changes to the blue curves will propagate to to accompaning surfs.As you can imagine all this extra information while very useful also creates very large databases.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...he biggest difference between Mold+ and Cimatron is that Cimatron is fully parametric and is the only modeling software that I am of aware of that is also attribute driven...

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He talked a little bit about the Parametrics but he said sometimes can be a hindrance. He said with the way Moldplus is able to break out cores/cavities to different levels as well as breaking out the electrodes seperately makes the overall functionality quite similar though they do differ in the way they accomplish the end result. In Moldplus I know frm my experience, you're able to specify level and color attributes to Core/Cavity/Slides.

[Mike Mattera - TFM]

If you do a test, it's not about the mold, It's about the tolerance for the cut. If they use your part and set the tolernce to .010", they will probaly process faster.

 

Compare apples to apples. Same part, same tolerance.

 

Mike Mattera

[beej]

be careful comparing tolerances. .001 in mastercam is equal to .0005 in cimatron. They base their tolerance on a "per side" basis. where as mastercam is based on a total tolerance basis. If cimatron is set to .001 and mastercam is set to .001 mastercam is twice as precise.

[bestguest]

James,

 

Picture this:I want to create an electrode.I go thru all the steps to create the trode.

1.Identify the surfs.

2.Include them from the model.

3.Trim and extend accordingly.

4.Add a WCS and a holder.

 

Now say that this is a rib electrode and I have 5 other ribs that are kinda like the first.This happens all the time but I always have to go thru steps 1-4 to get the next trode.With Cimatron i can save the steps 1-4 as a template and use those instructions to create my last four trodes without ever having to model them.I just identify the surfs and right click "Appy Template" Done.

I did not believe until I went thru a tutorial for myself.Darn near magic.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I'm not an electrode guru, but if I remember correctly in Electrode maker, I select they type of feature (Boss, Depression, etc...) select the region, set the correct holder and BAM, they are isolated on a seperate level. So really Cimmatron seems to only be saving surface identification, so I guess that could be time consuming depending on the complexity if the rib and I'm not sure about the WCS either, but that's simple enough to create.

 

Any idea what Cimmatron pricing is ball park????

[beej]

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Any idea what Cimmatron pricing is ball park????

 

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over 20 I think.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Cimmatron's been around for a while and it does not appear they are going anywhere but neither is Mastercam. I am of the opinion that the demo jockey needs to do his job and make YOUR part in front of you so you can see all the steps involved. Being an ex MC Demo jock I know a few tricks that can be quite impressive to the uninitiated. Case in point; I went up against Gibbs a few times, and they ALWAYS use the same lame arse demo. Dude could do it blindfolded in like 5 minutes. One of our customers was kind enough to xxxx a copy of it for us. So I created the part did the programming ahead of time, saved as a library. I'm sure you know where I'm going with this by now. So the next time I went up against Gibbs, I did the same demo he did, in about 1/2 the time he did, I imported the Operations from the library applied the geometry, BAM! Done. So to be fair, comparing apples to apples, make sure all the tolerances are the same, weather it's .01 or .01 as long as they are the same (someone mentioned the differences between tolerancing, definitely take that into account), and give them identical parts. Not too hairy because you want to be able to see something in an hour or less (I'm guessing you're a busy man). See what it takes to get a part done. How much menu switching, parameter setting, etc... he has to do. Definitely take care to lok at the interface. Is it intuitive. Ask about 3rd party applications. Do they have developers that can or will create custom apps to do different things? Here's a list of the different apps available for Mastercam The Difinitive C-Hook List

[Allan]

QuickSplit (solid sep in moldplus, been arround for years) is just simply awesome.Unlimited pull direcions (How many planes can you make in MC (unlimited)) an fully automatic internal shut-off surface creation (part surf in moldplus, been arround for years).Quick electrode (electrode maker in moldplus, been arround for 4 or 5 years anyway) is another killer application.Automatic print creation (views in moldplus, been arround for years) and template electrode creation.

 

I wonder where the Cimagouge guys got there great ideas? Thanks Anbu!

 

Allan

[bestguest]

Allan,

 

How parametric are the objects created in Mold Plus?I can tell you that Cimatron is fully pararmetric.Can MoldPlus create electrode drawings automaticially with 1 mouse click?I am not here promoting Cimatron.I am providing a first hand comparision from somebody that has used both.As of today the comapny I work for does not use Cimatron.2 Seats of X and 7 seats of SolidEdge.

[Jim from Eastech]

Problem with Cimatron is their financial health. From their 4th Q 2005 report.

 

Revenues for the fourth quarter of 2005 were $5.42 million, compared to $6.40 million in the fourth quarter of 2004. Net loss for the fourth quarter of 2005 was $(1.72) million, or $(0.22) per fully diluted share, compared to a net loss of $(249) thousand, or $(0.03) per fully diluted share in the fourth quarter of 2004.

 

Revenues for the year ended December 31, 2005 were $20.92 million, compared to $23.16 million in 2004. Net loss in 2005 was $(4.59) million, or $(0.59) per fully diluted share, compared to a net loss of $(388) thousand, or $(0.05) per fully diluted share in 2004.

 

http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinves...-Feb-2006%20PRN

 

Significant drop in sales (when everybody else is increasing), sig increase in losses, 4th Q and for the year.

 

good package but how long will they be around? With the rate that the big boys are buying smaller competitors, I bet it's only a matter of time.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...Significant drop in sales (when everybody else is increasing), sig increase in losses, 4th Q and for the year...With the rate that the big boys are buying smaller competitors, I bet it's only a matter of time...

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[beej]

I wish CNC software would buy them and incorporate some of their technology. That would be sweet.

[bestguest]

Jim,

 

I would have to agree.They spent a ton of money developing the "Elite" platform with very little to show for return here in the North American market.Good product with terrible marketing.