Question For Former SmartCAM Users

[Don S at Barefoot CNC South]

James

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Just keeping things in check. Gotta keep an eye on those snake oil peddlers with their fancy buzzwords and all.

 

Winnie, all he's gotta do is look croseyed at someone in here and we'll kindly ask for his SIM# and that should be that.

 

Pretty much everyone 'cept for a few folks (that come and go) get along in here. With over 16,000 registered members and over 340,000 (340,274 as of this writing) that's quite a feat and a tribute to all of us wanting to keep the quality of technical information very high, and wanting first and foremost keeping the quality of communication very high as well. I for one want this Forum to thrive. As long as we remain civil to one another (even despite sometimes heated debate) this will continue to be THEEEEEE Pre-eminent CAD/CAM forum on the net. Dave and gang are the innovators not the immitators... (like the Run DMC sample?) and considering this is mainly a Mastercam forum as opposed to a "Manufacturing" Forum. It is a high traffic Forum. I'd hate to see the ISP bill. In-House's ISP probably had to move this forum over to a dedicated server with as much traffic as this place generates.

 

Personally I consider this topic to be more of a mental exercize than anything else. Jon is Jon and he will continue to be Jon. None of us here are going to be able to convince him that there are better, more stable, more flexible ways than his "ideal 'GTE'" system. But my gut tells me there's people on the fence with SmartCAM still and they need to be brought up to speed with the capabilities of CAD/CAM Software of TODAY instead of continuing use IGUESS, SAT (V15 as of this writing) (MC is up to V16) and DXF translators??? IMNSHO, translators ALONE are a good enough reason to get away from SmartCAM. If you can't run with the BIG Boys (CATIA, Pro/E, SolidWorks, UG, Solid Edge, and Inventor) NATIVE CAD files then stay on the porch. Personally(this is just my opinion) I think it's immoral(well, perhaps immoral is a bit strong, but certainly in poor taste at the very least) to ask a customer for anything other than a native CAD file. Sure some of the translators cost extra, but I can tell you they are well worth it when you consider the cost of owning and maintaining the native CAD Systems mentioned above. I'm looking at a stack of prints right now, the only dimensions are hole definitions and profile tolerances TO THE CAD MODELS. You can't build the CAD model from the print. This is today, this is the future. Get with it or get out of the business. Over the last 15 years (this January will be my 15th year in Mfg.) I've been in this industry, I've gone from seeing 95% paper blueprints and 5% CAD Models to seeing 95% CAD Models. and 5% Paper Blueprints. Even some of the old Douglas Aircraft parts I've worked on n the last year have CAD Models available now.

 

Whew.... that was more than I wanted to say but I guess it needed to be said.

 

[ 12-28-2006, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: James Meyette ]

[jon_banquer]

"kunfuzed, change at point does allow spindle speed change but only works on a contour toolpath, not pocketing, circlemill, surfacing toolpaths, etc... In those cases you need to use the toolpath editor. In either case it is graphical, you select the point where you want to make the change, and make the changes you desire. The reality of is that both of these shouldn't need to be used on anywhere near a regular basis."

 

That reality is based on the type of work someone does. For some job shops changing feedrates while doing pocketing is needed on a regular basis.

 

Would you like an example where changing the feedrate on a pocketing toolpath is needed on a regular basis?

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[jon_banquer]

"Once this place got going, I never go there anymore. Less spam in here too."

 

Seemed to me what really happened was you and Bottlebob got into a fight and you packed up and left.

 

Too bad. There is more to machining life than just CADCAM.

 

Bottlebob posted this link in alt.machines.cnc a few days ago. Perhaps you or others might enjoy this video. I know I did!

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3NVJ4pEFuY

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[jon_banquer]

"I heard he sweeps floors pretty good, course that was like 7 or 8 years ago in the NG."

 

Hard to remember back that far but I think 8 years ago I was head of CADCAM systems for Precision Resource Tool and Die division.

 

Precision Resource is one of the largest fineblanking firms in the U.S.

 

http://www.precisionresource.com/

 

At that time I would have been using DP Esprit X and I would have been doing stuff like attending advanced macro training at D.P. Technology in Camarillo, CA.

 

We had a janitor service so no one in engineering or on the shop floor ever swept the floor. If it makes you feel better where I work now is a much smaller job shop and I occasionally have the need to sweep or mop the floors while setting up jobs on our Mori Seiki vertical mill which is not enclosed.

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[jon_banquer]

"Like I said, if you need to edit it there's something inherently wrong and it needs to be fixed."

 

In my opinion there is "something inherently wrong" when a MasterCAM user is not able to do things like graphically change feedrates and spindle speeds while pocketing and must resort to creating macros and using the post language to get the job done.

 

Perhaps one reason I feel this way is that I often train others on using a CADCAM system and I have a pretty good idea what kinds of tools speed up the learning process.

 

My understanding is that you are or where a full time independant CNC programmer. Perhaps the reason you prefer non-graphical tools and mucking around in the post or using macros is that you get paid for this skill. Since MasterCAM does not appear to have the proper graphical toolpath editing tools at this time in MasterCAM X² this would appear to open to door to more income potential for you. While this maybe better for you, I can assure you it is not better for those who are use to more graphical CADCAM systems like say Gibbs, FeatureCAM, etc. and who might be as you say "sitting on the fence" and thinking of moving to MasterCAM.

 

Further it would appear that CNC Software is missing out on an oppertunity to covert Gibbs, FeatureCAM, etc. users who prefer to use graphical editing tools on their toolpaths.

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[Ocean Lacky™]

I must be missing something here. I still don't understand the NEED to change feed and speed while pocketing, or surfacing for that matter. If you know how to program it correctly to begin with, it should run top to bottom, side to side, next tool, next op, next part. The ONLY time I ever use the toolpath editor is when I'm too lazy to draw in a clamp or other fixture geometry. I just edit two Z heights and move on.

[jon_banquer]

"I must be missing something here. I still don't understand the NEED to change feed and speed while pocketing, or surfacing for that matter."

 

It is often desirable when milling thin walls to change the feedrate and spindle speed when entering and exiting corners... especially if you don't want to rip the walls down.

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[crazy^millman]

Again you are sounding more like a pitch guy than a real person that uses software. Again the emphasis on thing that if you were really doing your job right you would cover all the thing you say you are having problems with by picking the right tools for the set-up as well as knowing that in Mastercam you can change the spindle speed and feed rate when pocketing. See the difference in Mastercam is that it knows when you are finsihing and since it gives so many opitions when you are finishing you can decide when you create toolpath what works best for each application and apporach. Again this goes back to the ability and forthought of the programmer and their understanding of the machine tool, the material, and the tooling being used to do the job. This one sticking point of yours is getting played out. So when you are doing a 300 meg toolpath for a 3d surface tell me what damn good does to have this ability. You mean to tell me it is not a waste of a programmer's time to go through all those 3 million moves to pick a certain place where you think you want to change a spindle speed. Or a 5 axis move where you have 20,000 lines of code and you are going to sit there and go over all of that to change one place to a different feedrate verses using soemthing like adaptive feed or use the functions of the most modern machines that have adaptvie feed on them.

 

Graphical change your toolpath means what advantage in time if you did everything right the 1st time. If you make mistake or do not understand feeds and speeds and depths of cut then I guess this ability would be important to you. I find it funny sicne you have never use Mastercam you keep tearing it down when you have never put one of your parts on it and seen what controls you do or do not have where you think you need the change ability that you say Mastercam is so lacking of that makes it so inferior to other software's just becuase it does not have this one feature that you keep on and on about.

 

People have no problem with opinion, but it like my 3 year signing the same song all day after some time I ask her to sing a different song. Got something different to sing about we are all ears but to keep saying the sky is falling on this one topic is getting old and the record player has skipped the beat enough that unless you have access to the software and want to quit trying to pitch other software then lets move on.

[crazy^millman]

quote:

---

In my opinion there is "something inherently wrong" when a MasterCAM user is not able to do things like graphically change feedrates and spindle speeds while pocketing and must resort to creating macros and using the post language to get the job done.

---

Again a lack of knowledge and understanding Mastercam.

 

quote:

---

It is often desirable when milling thin walls to change the feedrate and spindle speed when entering and exiting corners... especially if you don't want to rip the walls down.

---

I have done part that have .03 wall thickness and over 6" deep and not have any of the problem you are refering too. What is your speed and feed? What is the machine you are running these toolpaths on? What is the spindle speed and are you using? Highspeedmachining practices or oldschool practices where you think a rougher in one pass the correct apporach to machining thin wall parts? Are you waterfalling the parts or even understand what that means? Not a buzz word but a proven method recommned by Boeing, Lockeed, and other Aircraft Maunfactures. Do you know what left hand sprial right hand cutter are? We can debate the short coming in many area, but again to keep pointing to something you think is wrong with Mastercam and never used to it to make part of the nature you are talking about is like me saying Some software that make Face is not good becuase It does not have tihs widget or that widget when in all reality it is my in ability and lack of knowledge of its use that limits my ability and understnading.

[Ocean Lacky™]

quote:

---

It is often desirable when milling thin walls to change the feedrate and spindle speed when entering and exiting corners... especially if you don't want to rip the walls down.

---

 

 

I thought that's what this was for.

[kunfuzed]

"It is often desirable when milling thin walls to change the feedrate and spindle speed when entering and exiting corners... especially if you don't want to rip the walls down."

 

Maybe Mastercam doesn't need this "graphical toolpath editing" stuff becuase there's always a more efficient way of doing it. For instance, Mcam has a "Thin Wall" feature in it's poceting routine that makes it unneccasary to edit the toolpath. I beleive the demo cd has an example.

[crazy^millman]

We can pop out 3 or 4 of these just as you can. I am sure at some point my typing and spelling will come under attack always does.

[kunfuzed]

Should have put a period after attack and started "Always does" as a new sentence.

[gcode]

I've been wondering what this Graphical Toolpath Editing is and I've finaly figured it out

Graphical Toolpath Editing = Etch-a-Sketch

 

 

I've also learned something equally important

 

Do Not Feed the Troll

[kunfuzed]

Ahhh, but he's so cute!

[jon_banquer]

It's a magic button that gives you a way to *directly state the exact spindle speed and feedrate exactly where you want it*?

 

Push the button!

 

Here is an example of a graphical approach to toolpath editing using Gibbs:

 

You right click on a machining operation tile and choose Utility Markers. You can then graphically drag a Utility Marker from the dialog box that opened to the *exact point* on the toolpath where you wish to make a change. No limit, that I know of, to the amount of Utility Markers you can have on a single toolpath

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[Ocean Lacky™]

Graphical Toolpath Editing is for those that don't know what they're doing in the first place. Kinda like a Learner's Permit for new drivers.

[jon_banquer]

"Maybe Mastercam doesn't need this "graphical toolpath editing" stuff becuase there's always a more efficient way of doing it."

 

So you believe a CADCAM system can be created / that exists that will know how to handle every instance that comes up in a machining job shop?

 

"For instance, Mcam has a "Thin Wall" feature in it's poceting routine that makes it unneccasary to edit the toolpath. I beleive the demo cd has an example."

 

Does it? What it looks like is a way for a percentage to be applied to slow down in the corners... hardly the control that is often needed when you do thin wall parts with an older CNC control.

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[Ocean Lacky™]

OOOOHHHHH! A Magic Button! Well, why didn't you say so in the first place? MasterCam only has Ordinary Buttons. But, I take comfort in knowing there will be a good toolpath generated when *I* push them. I've never been one to believe in Hocus Pocus anyway.

[jon_banquer]

"Graphical Toolpath Editing is for those that don't know what they're doing in the first place."

 

Graphical Toolpath Editing is for those who know and can use what powerful CADCAM systems like say UG Manufacturing, WorkNC, DelCAM PowerMill, WorkNC, SmartCAM, etc. offer in MasterCAM.

 

Is it your argument that UG Manufacturing, Work NC, PowerMill, SmartCAM, etc. users "don't know what there doing in the first place" and don't need powerful graphical toolpath editing tools because MasterCAM always has better toolpathing than any of the other CADCAM systems I just named?

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[Ocean Lacky™]

quote:

---

Is it your argument that UG Manufacturing, Work NC, PowerMill, SmartCAM, etc. users "don't know what there doing in the first place

---

Obviously not. If they did they'd be using MasterCam! back at ya.

 

I can see where this might be handy for the 'fresh out of college, never turned a handle on a shop floor' crowd to fall back on. However, those of us with a little experience would likely have a few parts in the box while they're still dragging infinite numbers of "Utility Markers" all over the screen.

[jon_banquer]

"Graphical Toolpath Editing = Etch-a-Sketch"

 

It can mean Etch-A-Toolpath.

 

For many years Gibbs has had a tool like this that can be very helpful when doing say ...

 

Castings!

 

Here is how Etch-A-Toolpath works in Gibbs:

 

Highlight the tool tile that contains the tool you going to use. Click on the create connected lines button in the Gibbs geometry palette. A dialog box opens and the mouse pointer changes to a highlight of the diameter of that tool. The dialog box contains a rapid check box for when you wish your move to be a rapid move. When this check box is ticked the line(s) you draw / drag will become a dashed line showing you it's a rapid move.

 

Seems to me like this is *yet another* Graphical Toolpath Editing tool that would be helpful to have in MasterCAM.

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[jon_banquer]

Here is a video that was done to show the power of Graphical Toolpath Editing:

 

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-8516965992369442939

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[moldman7n]

We use MCX for making molds. We have no time to fine tune any toolpaths. The ones we get right out of the box from MCX work well. We make many 3d shaped electrodes per DAY. When we get our new high speed mill, I hope to make that several DOZEN per day. There is no time for any of this nonsense. We cut the damn thing and move on to the next one. The biggest improvement MC needs is ACCURATE toolpaths for SIMPLE 2D EDM orbits. I cannot believe this does not exist in 2006. Word is it's coming in the next release. I can't wait! Do you have any idea what the time difference is between a 3d orbit on a Charmilles edm and a simple down and orbit? Hint - it's a LOT. Bottom line is MC is going in the right direction as far as I'm concerned.