Apology needed??

[mkd]

So I’ve been collecting quotes on tooling for our new mori mill. It has this new dual contact spindle. It’s called “big plus” where the flange of the cat40 is special ground to seat against the spindle. I’m going shrink fit for endmills.

Regular SF holders are between 170-240 dollars. This new salesman (who just previously quoted me $700 for one complete assembly in the milling collet, big plus type) quotes me $430-$440 per holder in the big plus variety.

Right after this, a familiar salesman visits me and I ask him for a quote on SF holders from big plus. This guy calls his contact back at the shop to get the price and gets a list price of $212 and says he can give it to me for just under $200. Stunned and a little pissed, I tell my guy that I was quoted $450. My guy reasons that this new salesman does not actually represent the manufacturer and is buying them retail and upping the price on me.

So I email this new guy “with those prices; we have nothing to discuss”. Undeterred, he writes he can get some regular SF’s for $250. By this time I’m annoyed because it took us about a week to get this far and his price is still a bit high and he’s not getting my point.

So I decide to clarify: “honesty is important. You need to be upfront with potential customers as to weather you represent the product line. I am no longer a potential.”

He then replies about being confused and who ever told me he is not their Rep is lying and that he does not appreciate having his honesty questioned.

Oh crap if I just stuck to the facts I would not need to back peddle and apologize if I’m wrong.

So what I’m thinking is: if I can get these tools for $200 I don’t need to apologize. If they in fact cost $450, I need to buy them from the new guy plus take him out to lunch and grovel.

What do you guys think?????????

[robk]

1st of all, if you could buy Big Plus shrink fit holders for under $200.00 then do so... I personally have never seen them that cheap, but I have been wrong plenty of times. The $400.00 range sounds more realistic. Are you sure that you're comparing apples to apples?

Not sure if it's you nature, but I would apologise if I found out that I was wrong. In the scheme of things this industry is not that big. People know each other and burning bridges is not a good idea. You'd be surprised how far your name travels (for good reasons as well as bad)... I would at least try to iron things out and clear the water. You might need that rep for other items. I don't think you need to wine & dine the guy, but you need to keep things professional, and don't turn this into a personal battle.

[Johan van de Loenhorst]

If he is able to lower from 450 to 250, I would not trust him the next time. I would tell him to put the holders somewhere the sun don`t shine

[Guest]

Never, never, never, give the salesguy guff.

 

If you don't like his price, don't use him.

 

However,

 

In this business you never know when you might need to call on someone to get you out of a jam.

 

Do I think an apology is needed, absolutely.

 

That is just not the way "professional" people behave.

 

JM2C

[crazy^millman]

It is always a balancing act when trying to deal with situations like this. I always apologize if I am wrong not just with salesman but for everything. To error is human and we all do it, but to act like we are perfect and make no mistakes will always come back and bite us on the arse.

 

HTH

[mkd]

apology sent. you guys are the best

[Kevangel]

quote:

---

If you don't like his price, don't use him.

---

Agreed...My feelings are "when you ask for a quote, they can bid anything they want" and take their chances on getting order or repeat business...on other products, he might be lower than other guy higher...starvin, etc. ( cheap guy may raise prices after first order) don't take it personal in my opinion.

[Fig sign]

rEMINDS ME OF A GUY ,THAT once came to us with a proposal to buy collets 3 times price less

I used ETM ,this was something from Taiwan never heard of .

My boss bought them ,I was against this move .

We threw them away in 2 days .

Bad stuff is cheap nowadays .

You need to work with someone you trust .

If someone works for 15-20 years he protects his reputation and will not play this overprice game .

I know some guys for 15 years .

I have good relations with everybody .

Helps me a lot

Will help you too .

[tonyc]

Quote

"If he is able to lower from 450 to 250, I would not trust him the next time. I would tell him to put the holders somewhere the sun don`t "

 

IT's all about money, if you can't

get them for 200 then take 250 don't kiss his

xxxx it's his job to kiss yours that's called sales xxxx kissing.

[Kevangel]

Always remember, "if a salesmans lips are moving, he MAY be lying"... even if they act like your long lost brother...

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Coming in a little late...

 

 

When getting a quote, you're under no obligation to buy. Personally I've run in to this situation a few times and I just buy from the guy that's going to give me a fair price (not I did not say best price), the BEST service AND excellent technical advise. Even though I know some sales guys are schmucks, I never tell them that because (like what was said earlier)in this business you never know when you're going to need something in a hurry or that guy may be the exclusive rep for something you need, or perhaps there was a mis-communication of needs.

 

It's ALWAYS best to keep it profesional if at all possible.

 

JM2C

[Guest]

salesmen drive me crazy.i had one contact me about a year ago.i bought some electrodes for hole popper and some wire edm supplies.it took about 3 weeks for all of the supplies to come in.after that he called all the time like we were best buds.he wanted to sell me brass wire.i told him up front that his delivery schedule was sporatic and i wanted my supplies at least within a week.so i ordered 1 spool of wire to try and told him about the delivery.it took 2 weeks for them to get the order out and 1 more week for it to get here. the spool was also broken.i told him i wouldn't buy anymore wire from him only electrodes.he still calls all the time bugging the hell out me.he called the other day and i was exstremely busy and i was in a foul mood.i told him,listen i'm not going to buy anything from you,quit calling me and hung up. not too professional i know,but he had a thick head and hope he finally got the point.my new motto,don't call me, i'll call you.

[Zoober]

One thing I've learned running businesses - mine and those owned by others is:

"Bidness is Bidness"

Don't take things personally. It's ALL about the money. If someone highball$ me, I consider everything - service, delivery, off hours help - everything. Sometimes it's worth every extra penny.

But a lot of people consider price only, and if it is high, then we must question their motives.

 

Good service is expensive. Overtime pay, extra shipping costs, etc....

 

I frequently offer people (very, very)lowball prices for houses - whether they are on the market or not. Many people are offended by this lowball price I offer. But there have been two families that I have kept out of bankrupcy (and they even made out on some equity) by these lowball offers, when nobody else would even consider offering because the house was not even for sale.

 

A good friend of mine and owner of a machine tool dealership once told me something that I always remember:

"Value is a perception; If someone thinks they got a good deal, then they did."

[High Sierra Plastics]

Remember also whether you mean it or not saying I'm sorry doesn't cost you a dime, and in the future might save you some $$.

 

Henri

[mkd]

Well I just got done doing some apologizing for not keeping it professional.

 

So does anyone want to chime in on actual prices for holders with this design?

Capitalism is wonderful that it allows a company to charge 400 for something you could otherwise get for $166 if not for that little extra grind work. Patent #5,352,073; when is this going to run out so we can get it for a reasonable premium?

[Rick Henrickson 65]

are you looking at kaiser big plus holders?

 

another thing to remember if the price is high there might be a reason!

 

we did a test between all the top collet people

Iscar

Lyndex

Nikken (they were seperate at the time)

kaiser

others

 

the test was for run-out and repeatability

 

we had to test pins ground at the middle of 2 collet ranges

 

then we put the pins in the collet torqued to spec checked them for run-out at the collet and 10 x diameter out

 

the range was huge!

 

top dog was nikken I think they were the MMC

they were not the most exspensive (Lyndex took that spot, and came in second)

but you may want to do something like that.

 

If you have a big plus spindle you would want to take advantage of that on roughing for sure but you do not have to run big plus tapers only!

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

The Big Plus patent was originally filed in 08-10-1992. Generally patents run for 20 years so do the math...

 

Part of the reason the cost is a premium are that there is only 2 makers for tools that use the dual contact system. Nikken and Bip Plus. For that single reaosn that raises the price, the other thing, the tolerances involved to produce those tools is extremely tight.

[Mick]

I recently ordered some Big Plus holders from Sandvik Coromant. We run a 50mm C6 R390 Long Edge Milling cutter in our OM Vertical Lathe (C Axis machine). The Machine has a Big Plus spindle, and the Big Plus made quite a big difference in tool rigidity when milling.

 

I'm not sure wether Sandvik Coromant actually manufacture these particular Big Plus holders, but the catalogue does state "Big Plus System - License BIG DASHOWA". I was under the impression Sandvik Coromant made them, but I cant confirm that.