HAAS Problems

[jspangler]

Hi There

I need a little help, and a lot of opinions here.

When I first got my Haas VF-2 ( 3/01) I noticed a squeaking that i thought was coming from the coolant pump ( Cause it sounded like the pump had run dry and hurt itself), so I called service to have them check it out( 3/30/01). It was less than a month old, and since I don't have $60k to throw away I wanted to make sure Everything was perfect. The tech comes out and runs a few tests... Nothing. Says it's a belt and that they all squeak, don't worry about it. Few months go by (06/01), I'm using the machine more and more, and the squeak gets louder. FIguring my warranty will be up soon, I'd like to get this fixed now. The next tech comes out and finds that the 2 speed transmission was never filled with oil ( Supposed to happen at the factory , I filled it with all listed and required lubes). He's actually suprised it lasted as long as it did. FIlls it with oil, runs a few tests and leaves. Service manager comes out and says to run it till it breaks, and they'll fix it under warranty.

 

(6/02) OK, they came out and fixed it, and now (TODAY) I get a call from the service manager saying that the technician that checked out the old transmission at the factory has determined that the problem was caused by the user ( implying i crashed the machine), and that it couldn't have been that it never been filled with trans fluid, because (according to him) there's a pressure switch that will prevent it from cycle starting if it runs dry.

 

My Problem is this

 

1) I've never crashed the machine, ( But I have drilled through a few fixtures) and if i had wouldn't that break the spindle, not the tranny?

 

2) It took them over a year and 3 tech visits to determine the problem, which they said would be covered, and now are sending me a $3,200 bill.

 

BTW, I have all service sheets, and the note from the service manager saying they would cover the repair under warranty, since the problem was encountered before the warranty was up.

 

Help

 

John

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

---

...and that it couldn't have been that it never been filled with trans fluid, because (according to him) there's a pressure switch that will prevent it from cycle starting if it runs dry.

---

It is entirely possible that there is a switch, but it's entirely possible that the switch was faulty thus allowing it to run empty. To say that there is absolutely no possible way the machie left the factory in that condition is inaccurate. My dad was a Service Tech for MTS (Local Haas Factory Outlet) and he's told me some zingers.

 

More than likely, even taking a HUGE dril at full rapid would not damage the transmission. It would surely damage the spindle but not the tranny.

 

They are trying to smoke you. Don't budge. Take 'em to court if need be. They'll never win, and they don't wnat the negative press. KEEP ALL YOUR PAPERWORK and document all your contact with them.

[chris m]

We battled for a full year to have a (brand new) machine replaced by the manufacturer because the one they delivered was basically unuseable. They tried all of the same BS that Haas is trying to pull on you and more hoping to blame the fact that their machine was junk on something that we did. The threat of legal action is sometimes the only thing that cuts the bulls**t.

 

My advice is to immediately go up the Haas chain of command; ask for the name of the regional or, better yet, national service manager and send him a detailed letter reviewing the history of your machine and include copies of all of your service records for his review.

 

If, after this, you are still not satisfied, it is time to go to court.

 

BTW - I would be screaming at the salesman (regional VPs of sales are good too) who sold you the machine as they can sometimes put some weight on the service dept. I usually say "I'm going to buy a lot of machines in the next 35 years and there won't be 1 [insert name here] on the list if you don't fix this..." or "I'm going to rip you and your machine to everyone who will listen for the rest of my life if you don't make this right..."

 

C

[jspangler]

Hi

We've already spoken to the salemsan, and he came out and checked all the paperwork, but his attitude is "Don't worry, we'll wait and see what they say".

 

My Attitude is " Fix this... NOW"!!

 

Next time I need a machine, I 'll think I'll do a little more research before i buy another Haas.

 

Thanks

 

John

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

---

"Don't worry, we'll wait and see what they say".

---

Yeah, meanwhile, the clock is still ticking on the warranty. That's real cool.

[KMI]

We had the same problem with a Haas Machine. We spent over a year listening to excuse after excuse. They replaced almost everything in the machine at least once and that includes two transmissions. The machine was so loud at 10k that you had to wear ears plugs and ear muffs. It would give you a wicked head ache by the middle of the day. They told me the belts will quite down once they break in. DONT BELIEVE IT. I finally got so sick of there bs that I got rid of my haas to the tune of a 15000 dollar loss. We upgraded to a takumi seiki. What a difference. I would suggest that you immediately contact a lawyer and sue the dealer that sold you the machine. Check into your state legislation regarding the fit and finish of the product. Most states have fairly stiff laws. The product must perform as stated or it is misrepresentation. Haas sent a factory rep up to our shop after a year of crap. The rep spent a week here and couldnt get all the bugs worked out. He stated to me that they would make it a priority to get us up and running. A month went by with no contact. I would suggest you get rid of the machine as soon as you can. I think that Haas needs to rethink how they deal with there customers. They seem to be working more on selling machines than making sure that they work right. Of course this is my opionion and haas users that have had no problem may disagree but I've got a warranty repair file a half inch thick on a machine that was brand new. I feel for you. Take care.

[Eric S.]

This is all interesting news to me (a little alarming). I am useing 2 HAAS mills a VF2 & VF3 and have had no problems yet, but they do not have trany's and I mostly work with almn.

[Scott Bond]

Hi

quote:

---

BTW, I have all service sheets, and the note from the service manager saying they would cover the repair under warranty, since the problem was encountered before the warranty was up.

---

I have seen this note in person. It specifily says that this problem is cover if it breaks after the warrenty is up.

It's totaly black and white,

{{{White paper with black ink.}}}

 

[ 07-19-2002, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bond ]

[jspangler]

Hi

Just to add to the total stupidity of this situation , we received the repair invoice today, including a bill for the labor to replace the belts I requested them to swap while they had the tranny pulled out ( I paid for the belts). The repair invoice is for over $3,200!!!

 

We are in the process of writng a letter to Haas and a lawyer, detailing the history of the machine. It blows me away to think that they can blame a deteriorated transmission on a crash ( that never happened). What is the basis of their logic here? Or is this the standard "rainmaker" 'standard denial of all claims' type of deal.

 

Either way it sucks, and I doubt I will buy a Haas again, even if they do get this straightened out.

 

Thanks

 

John

[chris m]

I definitely feel for you guys in your situation. As I said in my earlier post on this subject, we went through a very similar mess on a milling machine that we bought in '97 (not a Haas, though); it took 12 full months for the machine tool builder to remove the piece of junk that they originally delivered to us and replace it with another machine (which is still an anchor, by the way, although it did meet our acceptance criteria). This only happened after HUNDREDS of hours of down time and much shucking and jiving on their end.

 

quote:

---

Either way it sucks, and I doubt I will buy a Haas again, even if they do get this straightened out.

---

I don't blame you; we will NEVER buy another machine from the manufacturer that gave us our problem child (assuming, of course, that management asks those of us who work with the machine)

 

Good Luck

 

C

 

[ 07-20-2002, 06:16 AM: Message edited by: chris m ]

[3d-machine]

call main office in ca. and ask for Gene Haas you may only get his secutary , but it will help.

[jspangler]

Hi

I called Haas Automation in Oxnard today, and spoke with Tavi Udra, the service manager who I understand is one step below God, and he is saying he will check the file, but basically that the fact that the machine ran on no oil. in the tranny and was squeaking from the spindle for 6 months doesn't matter. Neither does the fact that they told me to run it til it broke, and they would fix it under warranty.

O'yeah, he is being "unbiased" and just going by the repair sheets. The service manager at Haas Factory outlet in Torrance, Jim Mcregor, claims that since the noise was first notced in 11/01, and suddely got so bad in 6/02 that there was a crash sometime in between. OK. They new the machine was bad, and told me to run it til it broke. When was it supposed to break? And if they now decide that they won't cover this under warranty, how do I know that even if the problem was my fault ( HYPOTHETICAL) if it was fixed when I called them that it wouldn't have been so bad or expensive.

 

All I know is that if they don't get this straightened out, I'm going to open www.haas_sucks.com, and unload online...

 

[chad fisher]

We have VF6 50 taper that we got feb, 02 and it has been a real lemon. I think Haas at one time had

a 98% up time on there machines or they would pay you for the downtime. They would of lost

there butt on our machine. They have already had to replace the transmission for the tool changer because the spindle was loosing its orientation and crashing the arm. Three times they had came out in a two month span to tighten the encoder on the spindle or something.

Dah............ if its coming loose i think theres a vibration problem somewhere and its only a 5000 rpm machine. That one finally cost them 6500 for the tranny and who knows how much for labor. Then in one month it went through 2 hydraulic counterbalance cylinders. Our local sales rep is working on extending the warranty for us and there service for our area i would give them 90% rating. We do have a VF2 and 3 mini mills and they have been great. Even with the problems

with the VF6 i think i would buy another Haas unless i had a huge bankroll to spend.

 

Maybe an idea to do would be to e-mail this whole thread to someone at Haas to see that this

is getting out to people worldwide. I would hope to think that they would try to please a

customer instead of having bad PR from them............................just my .02

[beav700]

Is there anything like returning the machine and getting the money back? We just got new Hurco this week. They hooked it up Thursday and I got the machine to play with on Friday. What a junk. Paid $86,000 for it and it runs worse than our five your old Hurco we have. The spindle screams and shakes, .0011 backlash on Z, .0006 on Y with really jerky moves ( when moving .0001, the table jumps .0007 with a loud bang ), choppy moves on 3D milling and 32mb of memory that only stores 11mb files ( hurco can't explain this one).

On top of all this, the machine is made in China. I could not believe it. They always made them in Indianapolis and now they come straight from the ship to a xxxxehouse in CA. What have we done. I just want to sit in the middle of the shop and cry. MADE IN CHINA for $86,000. The damn salesman didn't say anything about the machine being made in China. I can't even look at this piece of sh__t in our shop. Really don't know what to do. Hurco said that they will send a guy to fix the problems. He said , all it needs is some adjustments. .0011 backlash on the brand new screw. This is unreal. I know, he will just compensate for it in the control and leave it like that. Never buy HURCO machines. NEVER. The old ones are good since they were made in US.

[mold100]

Man o man what to do.These are the postings I learn the most from,I got to look at this and

shake my head.I am looking into my first machine purchuse,and it will be a used hopefully well maintained machine,unfortunetly it will more than likely be an overproduced disposible machine such as a haas,hurco,tree,fadal,or something in those lines.ALOT of research here,I ran them all,But now I run 3 Makinos (out of cost range),anyhow let see if Im close-1) HAAS-Faster than the others,probably better a few years ago,now within the last 2 years over 60 new additions to the haas family,that tells me that they are overlooking quality trying to nail all the markets.BAD 2)Hurco-This is our primary moldbase machines at our shop,1- 40 & 1- 50 taper machineboth mid 90's only thing that stands out is ease of programming,for their operators(useless to me I am MC for life now)our Makino V55 will run a 3" sandvik better than the 50 tapered hurco,1 other good point for mid 90'svery reliable,hardly ever down,by far not rigid machinery.3)FADAL,frank&dave&larry they knew when they sold to G&L they were not the best machines Slower than the HAAS but I believe

pound for pound when cutting steel it out performs it,Not much but I think stronger and more rigid than the HAAS,also they seem to be tweaking the verticals in the lines they already produce,not adding 10 a month of lower priced @$%#^#$ that even looks like junk in a color brochure(ie.minimill,and toolroom mill((HAAS))4)TREE,not much expierience on it about 6 months but as far as rigidity comparable to fadal,easier to program(dynapath vs. cnc88) pretty reliable,But overpriced like Okuma.Maybe not lately since everybody and their brothers flooding the market with machining centers.SORRY SO LONG>

[kccadcam]

I hate to say it but, The Japanese are the only ones making excellent machining centers. Nothing out of the US is worth the cast iron it's made of.

Look at Matsuura, Mori Seiki, Makino, Etc.

[jspangler]

Hi

You know what sucks, is that up to this point, the service had been great. Whenever there was a problem, they were out here the next morning. Maybe there shouldn't have been any problems in the first place, I don't know, but they would get the macine running again, same day, under warranty.

 

Now this.

 

Well, wish me luck.

 

How do I get ahold of a mori seki salesperson??

 

John

[chris m]

mold100

 

I've got a nice Okuma & Howa you can have...

 

Just kidding

 

C

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Call Ellison Machinery. They'd be happy to show you a Mori. For your needs, I'd Suggest an MV-40e(that's what is was a couple years back). Good pricing, robust and quality.

 

JM2C

[jspangler]

Hi

Just for another update, the Service manager from HFO torrance, Jim McGregor, just called to let me know that he got the factory to give me 75% return cre ( the one that I supposedly broke) instead of their standard 50%, and he is also willing to cut his labor charge by 50%.

Still $1,900 out of my pokcet, which seems kind of strange that they would even offer that if the problem was my fault......

 

Hmm.

 

Oh, and this morning thier repair guy came out to fix the coolant system that was working fine until they replaced the transmission. Total cost - Parts $3.15 ( Yes three dollars and .15)

Labor and travel$ 270.00 9 ( yes TWO HUNDRED SEVENTY DOLLARS) all for a part which worked fine until they touched it. The tech just said " yeah, they wear out every once in a while".

 

Enough!!!!

 

www.haas-sucks.com

[Tony]

Beav

My cutter Comp at the controller Still doesnt work on my Hurco.

(In isnc or basic nc)

It reads the tool # and thinks its a POS. without a decimal.

Steve artz,Clearence,and Tony wells say there is a fix coming in the next patch but it has been yet another a month and no one knows anything...

Imagine that no cutter comp since sept 10th 2001.

Beav the memory loss is what it takes to run the O/S I have the clock speed etc for hurco ram

to go to 128mb for $cheap at best buy etc.

and the backlash has to be tuned in your drive cards they are "fighting to maintain POS."

there shoud be no load on the servo's to stay in POS.

Mead mossman is the service ACE.

all in all

"SURVEY SAYS WE SHOULD HAVE BOUGHT THE MAZAK"

 

[ 08-01-2002, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: Tony ]

[chris m]

quote:

---

The tech just said " yeah, they wear out every once in a while".

---

WHAT?!?!? Nothing should "just wear out" on a 15 month old machine! Are you kidding me?!?! Unless you are running Extrude Hone media for coolant there is no way that anything on that system should wear out that quickly. I will definitely need to think if I ever consider buying a Haas!

 

For all of you guys with the Hurcos, I've got a 1981 Matsuura that gets flogged every day with all original screws and very little backlash comp in the control that has less than half of the backlash that you guys are talking about; what's the deal?!?

 

Those Hurcos sound like my Okuma & Howa: .0008" backlash when it came off the truck, wouldn't bore two concentric holes no matter what you did, head .001 out of square no matter what we did...

 

C

 

[ 08-01-2002, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: chris m ]

[jspangler]

Hi

How are Fadals??

There was a 92 model, with coolant recirculator and automatic pallet changer, with something like 40 x 20 table travel, which is bigger than my haas BTW, at a local tool shop here for like 8,500. I've seen others at the same shop with less bells and whistles for the same price? Are they decent??

I don't feel like I'm getting screwed if i buy a machine that i suspect needs repair, but when I pay $60,000 for a NEW machine, and then get nickeled and dimed to death, it sucks.

 

Still waiting for a reaponse from HAAS, but www.haas-sucks.com is up until they decide to fix this problem.

 

John

[kccadcam]

I would'nt touch Haas with a 10 foot pole.

I would'nt touch Fadal with a 50 foot pole!!!!

[Charles Davis]

There are hundreds of Haas machines in my territory, and I've never heard anyone complain about the machines, sales, or service.

 

All I hear are rave reviews for accuracy, repeatability, reliability, and value.

 

Haas is very hard to beat in the low-mid market, and has a machine to fit most applications and budgets. If you're cutting aluminum, it's hard to justify spending more money.

 

I think where you need to look at a Japanese machine (definitely Mori from Ellison in S. Cal) is for high precision, hard metals. You're spending a lot more than for a Haas (twice as much) but that can be justified in some applications.

 

I think some of the comments in this area need to be put in perspective. Every manufacturer puts out a problem product occassionally (lemons) but I know this is not a significant portion of the Haas machines. Also, some dealers can do things that are (or seem) unfair, and that's unfortunate.

 

But please, enough Haas bashing: these are great machines, great values, and Made in the USA.