COSTUMER'S GEO

[HEAVY METAL]

A WAS USING A COMPANIES GEO TO MACHINE A PART AND THEY HAD A SLOT DRAWN BIGGER THAN IT WAS DIM ON THE PRINT.SO THE SLOT WOUND UP GETTING CUT BIG.I WOULD LIKE TO GET THE GENERAL OPINION OF THE FORM ON WHO'S AT FAULT THIS ERROR IS

 

THANKS HEAVY

[STEELTHOM62]

Heavy M,

 

Was the file they gave you dimensioned?

[Scott Bond]

Hi Heavy

 

If the P.O. or print says macnine per print,

then your it.

If the P.O.or print says machine to cad file,

then your it.

If the custermer doesn't like it ,

then your it.

 

[ 11-27-2002, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bond ]

[EPettus]

Customer's Geo - Customer's Problem

 

At least that is my belief

 

The customer did not see that way did they.

[Trevor Bailey]

Look to the PO. It never lies. If it was not stated on the PO, then both parties shold split the cost.

[McRae]

I have a pile of scrap sitting in the yard from just this case. Press the customer to pay it, and then watch your orders dry up. Talk to them and see - negotiate and you may survive another day. Always hold the belief that your customer is at least as prone to errors as you are. They may be reasonable and take responsibility for their errors.

 

My favorite solution is customer pays out of pocket material costs. Then the only thing you lose is machining time - and press for an order to remake the part.

 

I made an oversight on a project specification once and the subcontractor had the nerve to pull me on the rug for it. Because he was so honest - showed me the money he was out of pocket for fixing the omission (by the way - his staff engineered the product) I paid the bill for him, and now he gets the bulk of the business.

[BernieT]

Heavy M, I think you're stuck. Unless the P.O. says "cut to geo file" they want it per print. The geo file is usually supplied for your convenience, the part is to be to "print".

 

Tough lesson, but unfortunately as programmers we always have to check the supplied file.

 

BerTau

[Rekd™]

As Bertau said, If the print does not state to get dimensions from the CAD file, then don't. Take what is dimensioned from the print and use it. Otherwise, unless stated on the PO, you MUST make it to the PRINT, not the CAD file.

 

In some cases, it may be a very complex part without enough room to put all dims on the print, so they are taken from the CAD file. Unless this is the case, you're at fault.

 

-Rekd

 

[ 11-27-2002, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Rekd ]

[SVO]

A few things you might think about. When I trained people on the shop floor, first and foremost I would tell them you don't cut metal until you know for sure where the tool is going. As a programmer, if the print doesn’t match the file I pay the engineer a visit. I would assume if you approached the customer about it they probably would ask why it wasn’t checked before it was cut. Before you make that call ask yourself how important future work from that customer is to your company. Clearly their print was wrong. From my experience their not going to dwell on who’s fault it was, they will want to know what it will take to fix it and will the project delivery date be maintained. Kind of a cruel world out there. If there’s future work, work it out them. Consider it a lesson, move on, and don’t forget check those prints.

 

Dan

[Thad]

One shop that I worked at simply stated that CAD was master.

 

The last shop that I worked for didn't have a "blanket rule" like that. The callout on the print would say "2.06 dia drill thru," but if you analyzed the hole, it was really a 2" hole. (For drilling it doesn't matter.) It was a clearance hole for a 2.0 pin, but for the designer's ease, he created a 2.0 hole. So, my rule of thumb was that any hole that I was going to mill, I would analyze it first. I didn't go through the trouble of analyzing pockets/keys/etc though. At this point, I had to accept that the designer is responsible for doing his job also. In about 6 months, it only "bit me" once. But it was caught on the floor by the operator and corrected.

 

My opinion is that the customer should give you a dimensionally correct file. Otherwise, they'll have to deal with the problems. I don't think you can be responsible for checking every single dimension before cutting the job. That just adds to your cost. When a job gets quoted, your estimator does not allow for time to "double check" the print dimensions to the CAD file. If they can't provide you with the correct information in the first place, it's on them. There are shops that operate in a paperless (well, almost) environment. There isn't always a print to refer to.

 

Let's use your slot example. The CAD file has a .875 wide slot and the print calls out for a .750 wide slot. After the ruffing op, while comping the slot in, the operator makes a check and sees that the slot is too wide. He calls you down to look at it. When you realize the problem and call the customer to tell them that the slot is too wide (and you ask them if they can still work with it), they won't have much of a choice when they see it's their fault.

 

I think it's the customer's fault, and good for you if you catch it before you cut it.

 

Thad

 

[ 11-27-2002, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: thad ]

[Jean-Simon]

Hi Heavy, for me they're responsable but depending the relation you have with your customer you should be able to fix that easily except if it's a 200 pcs. order. I can't believe people are editing dimensions instead of modifying the drawing.

Good luck!

Simon

[Philcott]

Heavy M.

 

I go by the rule (unless stated otherwise) that the quote is based on the drawing and the drawing is what we work to. I also believe it is up to us to understand, beforehand, what we are expected to produce. I constantly find errors in cad files and regularly call the customer for Clarification.

I agree with a number of the replies above. Look at the whole picture. Sometimes you just have to eat the cost of a mistake even if you know you are not to blame. I don't think it's wise to get into a pissing contest with a valued customer and loose them. But that's your call.

 

Phil

[strawson]

You are both at fault, my company just made 100k of scrap cos we had tools made by a sub-con cnc shop, He cut the part wrong, But our own inspection pro did not pick it up and so it went out to the end user. But the sub-con picked up the tab to re-machine the tools FREE. So be safe and check all cad data against the Drawings and then check again.

And by the way we stood the full cost of the mistake to our customer.

[Matthew]

If it is a new customer, and they supply you with a drawing and CAD data then you need to check and make sure they match. I can get parts both ways. Some customers give a drawing, and I make the solid model to program from. With these customers, the drawing is GOD. Some customers give me both, and at first I had to make sure they were the same. We have an understanding now that the IGES data is GOD. If there is a discrepancy, I always go to the CAD data. I picked up another new customer last week, they sent me a sample part and cad data. I compared the two and noticed discrepancies. When I called him up, he said the sample part was GOD. It is what was being used in the machine and it was working. His explanation was that the part has been developed beyond the CAD data and it was never updated. The bottom line is, the customer wants the part right. They can supply CAD data, 2D part drawings, or sample parts. It is probably a good practice if you get more than form of information, be it CAD Data, Paper Drawings, or sample part, to ask the customer which form will they be checking against.

 

I also find that some customers are very easy to work with. If I tell them that it is easier for me to machine everything to the 3D Solid data thereby reducing time and errors (translate to money and delivery schedules) then they make more of an effort to make sure it is correct.

 

Another example, I did a program for one customer and I specified (because of the complexity of the part and their desire to make their own solid model, and the fact the prints were 30 years old and had been folded 30,000 times) that I will be machining to the CAD data, and it needs to be verified. When the job was finished, I got 30% more for having to re-do some of the programs.

 

It's a crap shoot sometimes.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

To me it basically comes down to how the part will be inspected. Is it inspected against the CAD Model or the drawing, then go from there.

 

I do my best to make sure the CAD data matches the drawing but alas I am not God, do not walk on water and as a consequence of that sortcoming I miss things some times.

 

Treat this as a lesson so that in the future you can get crystal clear instructions as to what is the standard. CAD or Drawings and make the parts accordingly. Now here's one thing, if the model comes in with no dimensions, then it is a safe assumption that the model is the standard but htis should be clarified with the customer just to make sure.

 

HTH

[McRae]

James-

 

I don't walk on water either (at least in the summer...) but by god , I sure got wet trying... Never set limits without testing them first!

[Scott Bond]

I don't walk on water either,But after I locate where the rocks are with Mastercam,I can create the desired effect.