Bosses Vs. Computers

[CNCme]

Good Eve'

 

I have always been amazed that owners

( Bosses ) Dont want to hear, for the most

part, things like :

 

I cant get this job going because

 

1. I have a problem with...

2. I lost my program

3. The COMPUTER isn't responding

 

To the boss, the only thing that matters

is that this job should be done in 30 to 40%

less time than is possible. Every job is

a "five minute job" or, that sounds like a

"Mini program" ( 30 tools).

 

Quality is #1, unless the parts a late.

 

We have made parts for years, and never

used a computer.

 

The thing that gets bosses the most is

they hate the computers, but they know

they have to have them.

 

 

Tony G

Unemployed Programmer

N.E Massachusetts - Southern New Hampshire

__________________________________________

End mills and tooling are like The "AMMO"

and coolant and chips are like the enemy

under your boots as you advance in the

Manufacturing Battle.

__________________________________________

 

[ 03-26-2003, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: CNCme ]

[Fig sign]

When I was an operator at my first CNC connected work my programmer used to say :

It does`n matter who made this mistake , you are the guy which will be blamed for it!

And the best was this one which the boss said :

We hadn`t scraped not a single work for 2 years ,that`s because we are working not fast enough!

Boss thinks that there is a magic button on a computer that does all the things automatically , only we hide it from him for a reason !

[Kenneth Potter]

Dude

I feel your pain,,,Been there & heard that kinda stuff & it still blows my mind.

I find that most bosses are simply computer scared & are afraid of loosing

control in management & ownership !

 

Some owners wont to this day use a cam system !!!!

There still stuck in the horse & buggy days of old .

[chris m]

quote:

---

Quality is #1, unless the parts are late

---

Ain't that the truth! I left my last job because I felt my personal reputation was being dirtied by this philosophy; the guys in the shop used to say our motto was "We ship junk late."

 

On your other thought, when our old GM sat in on the meetings with reps for various CAM software systems I'm told he was just disgusted that you actually had to know something about machining to use them; he wanted to take a supermarket bag boy and sit him in front of the computer and say "here you go."

 

Most managers who don't have manufacturing experience think that you just wave the print in front of the machine and a part falls out.

 

C

[mold100]

Kenneth you said it all.

[McRae]

I feel the pain experienced on both sides of this equation. I look at it this way though, you will not get a current without any voltage and you will never set a world record unless the bar is set extreemly high. Point is - the Manager/Owner types are trying to stretch the limits of what is possible to maximize efficency/profit. If there is a problem with their approach and outside the limits of good sence, then use my trysty old standy (as a last resort and always keep your resume up to date!)

 

Boss - I think we should do XXXX to get YYYY.

Mee - I don't give a $hit what you think, I want to know what you know.

 

[ 03-27-2003, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Andrew McRae ]

[CPeast]

I suppose the day the following Purchase Order shows up will be the day the boss gives a hoot 'bout the computer and other "challanges".

 

PO:1234

 

Line #1 - QTY: 1 PART: Widget

Delivery - 12/31/09 (or later)

Price - N/C

 

Line #2 - QTY: 2000 PART: Excuses

Delivery - ASAP

Price - $100 Each

 

Vendor Note: Material change from Inconnel to Aluminum is acceptable. All internal corner radii may be increased from .062" to .375".

[Surface]

It’s funny because I have been on all sides of the equation, a chippy, a machinist, a boss and a buyer. By far the most difficult task as a boss is to express what the customer wants, or is willing to pay for. Some customers want, and are willing to pay for quality. More often they are frugal.

If I say "We can make that part in 4 hours". It is frustrating to see someone spend 6 hours on a thing of beauty when the customer was willing to pay for only 4.

Sure, some people have unreasonable expectations and it’s our responsibility to try to educate them. But next time, just for giggles, ask the boss how much time they allotted to spend on a job, and offer the best quality in that time frame.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

---

Most managers who don't have manufacturing experience think that you just wave the print in front of the machine and a part falls out.

---

This is not limited to Managers. Engineers have this idea too, especially ours.

[chris m]

I feel another hijacking coming on, but its an O/T thread anyway, so what the hell?

 

quote:

---

If I say "We can make that part in 4 hours". It is frustrating to see someone spend 6 hours on a thing of beauty when the customer was willing to pay for only 4

---

It can also be frustrating to be asked to hack something and put your name on it because the boss said it would take 4 hours to do a 6 hour job.

 

There are two sides to every story and those of us (like me, and you) who have been on both sides of the desk just need to try to balance it out.

 

C

 

[ 03-27-2003, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: chris m ]

[CAM-mando]

I know in the jobshop environment things are pretty tough. We have competitors taking work at break even or less. We have a quality shop known for doing tough quality work, but now more than ever, we are having to really look hard at how to get job costs down. And many customers want more compressed deliveries. Bosses / managers / owners are often faced with the option of quoting aggressively or dont get the job. From what Ive been told folks at the recent NTMA conference are reporting the same thing. I am still a part time programmer / part time manager so I fully appreciate the technical problems that plague certain jobs. My position also forces me to look closely at job costs. My previous post was not meant to be sarcastic but to emphasize the "bottom line".

 

I recall a "confontation" about 10 years ago where I informed my overbearing boss (rather smugly) that "It still takes 9 months to make a baby" ... his reply ... "Well can we start preparing the nursery now" Still not sure exactly what that meant

 

[ 03-29-2003, 02:40 AM: Message edited by: CAMmando ]

[bryan314]

I feel your pain Oh how I feel your pain.

 

I'm constantly amazed, here's a guy who spent years working his way up through the ranks. Spent decades learning his craft. Spent thousands of dollars on quality tools. BUT won't spend one hour to learn to use a computer. A computer is a tool just like any other it takes time and effort to learn. I just wish more people would realize this.

 

quote:

---

Quality is #1, unless the parts a late.

---

Stole this from somewhere, can't remember where but I get this attitude alot: There's never enough time to do it right the first time but there's always enough time to fix it later.

 

 

James Meyette wrote:

quote:

---

This is not limited to Managers. Engineers have this idea too, especially ours.

---

Exaggerated for effect but all to true: Whatdamean you can't create a program to cut a flat bottom pocket with a 1/16 radius ten inches deep in five minutes?

 

They haven't tried this one in awhile since I raised holly hell the last time. After being there longer than God and labor laws should allow:

 

Them: Oh, your still here. Good. They need to cut this tonight. Very important, has to be done.

 

me: well.. uh.. ok. Has to be done?

 

Them: yep. Well gotta go. My kid/dog/goldfish/lawn has to be cut/neutered/mowed/fed and I can't stay late tonight. Bye.

 

next morning:

 

Me to one of the mill operators: So how did [super rush job #4342] turn out?

 

Operator: Oh, They decided not to run it 'till later this afternoon/weekend/etc. It wasn't that important.

 

I can count the number of time that it was *that important* on one hand. And that's after cutting off three fingers and a thumb.

 

Boy it feels good to vent.

 

On the other hand to counter all this negativity. I do work with a lot of neat people. A couple of these quys must be part saint.

 

Officially one is like head of machining or something but his real job seems to be more of a referee between machining, programming, and engineering. He's always nice. He asks the right questions and when he says something is wrong he's usually right. You don't have to play 20 questions with him only to find out that particular toolpath need a lower depth cut or something.

 

Our maintenace/electriction/jack-of-all-trades guy is always helping someone out. I don't just mean in the shop. He's always there to help if there's a family emergency or if someone is sick. He's helped quite a few people (myself included) with things like furnace troubles in the middle of winter. Many are just young kids or couples just starting out and have no money.

 

Bryan

[MACHINEMASTERG]

we have a saying in the shop its ...hurry up and wait...i cant tell you the number of times ive rushed the hot job to see it sit next to the machine in assembly then have it come back for a little touch up (what they call rework the whole job over )somethings will never change and i have a little saying ...it all pays the same on friday....

[Jack Mitchell]

This has turned into an ultracool thread!

 

I could add volumes to this topic yet choose not to - No I am not being cranky, I am obseving many similar feelings and responses.

 

Regards, Jack (26 and rising)

[CAM-mando]

OK now Im totally onboard with this thread ! Encountered a situation where our wire post aint giving us what we want. So the dongle comes home and sunday is a day of post hacking. Cant do that stuff on company time ... It wasn't quoted into the job

 

[ 03-30-2003, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: CAMmando ]

[chris m]

quote:

---

It wasn't quoted into the job

---

Oh, man, if I had a buck for every time I heard that one! The shop I used to work for did everything (precision sheetmetal fab, CNC and manual turning, CNC and manual milling, dip brazing, welding, assembly, plating, etc) and for awhile we had a guy who had no clue about half of that stuff quoting it all. When I got in a new job to work out the method, order of operations, allowed times, etc I would always see the selling price on the paperwork; can I tell you how many times I walked out front and said "Were you looking at the same print that I have when you quoted this, or what?"

 

I was always told "That's what we quoted it for, just make it"

 

Then, after we got croaked on the job the GM would come in to my area raving about how we lost our a$$ on the job and we'd tell him "That's because the price is way too low" to which he'd reply either "If we change the price we'll lose the job" (which we just lost $$ on, big loss there) or "Why didn't anybody talk to estimating?"

 

I'm sure everybody has these stories, but this crap was giving me an ulcer, that was one of the big reasons I decided to get out of the contract-shop gig for a few years; maybe I'll relax as I get older

 

C

 

P.S.

 

Hey Jack, I sent you my address; where's my "prize"?

[Zero]

quote:

---

There's never enough time to do it right the first time but there's always enough time to fix it later.

---

That's frequently said in my shop. At least once a week I'd say

 

 

I'm lucky enough to have bosses that do understand that a computer is just as much a tool as any other tool in the shop as well as the software you choose to invest in and run on it.

[godzillia_dude]

On a slightly different note, has anyone ever delt with a boss who thinks you can purchase a computer and ANY cam software and "put some $9.00 per hour computer geek" on the system (with no cam or machining experience at all ) and crank out quality code (because all you have to do is press buttons on the computer). I told my boss that I still prefer having code that works. You know code that dosen't take the machine(s) into new and different directions (aka "crash mode") .

[chris m]

quote:

---

On your other thought, when our old GM sat in on the meetings with reps for various CAM software systems I'm told he was just disgusted that you actually had to know something about machining to use them; he wanted to take a supermarket bag boy and sit him in front of the computer and say "here you go."

---

I am very familiar with that thought process

 

C

[CNCme]

Good day,

 

After a 30 tool prog, twin tombstone, 18

G50s per tombstone. 4 pages of G10 data setting

Info...

 

After all the tweekin' the boss would say

 

Jese, whats takin' so long

 

Well these tools... and this station...

and added another cut...

 

and then the boss would say...

 

What do you mean....

 

IT'S ONLY A COUPLE NUMBERS

 

Yea Mabye

 

a "COUPLE 3thousand NUMBERS"

 

 

Tony G

Unemployed Programmer

N.E Massachusetts - Southern New Hampshire

_________________________________________

End mills and tooling are like The "AMMO"

and coolant and chips are like the enemy

under your boots as you advance in the

Manufacturing Battle.

_________________________________________

[ScottyB]

I hear ya!!

 

We take pretty good care of our routers here, only minor mishaps over the last 8. Maybe that's why everyone thinks they MUST be idiot proof.

 

Little do they know we are always just one decimal place away from dropping the Z through the table and smoking a $10K spindle.

 

The famous line around hear (woodshop):

It's climb cutting, can't you just push a button and make it conventional cut?

 

Somedays I'm amazed that I'm not a raging alcoholic!!!!!